Episode V.V – The Disir
Join us as we discuss The Disir
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17th November 2021 @ 6:06 pm
This episode made me scream at the tv and come to the conclusion that Merlin was the villain in this (deception and manipulation of Arthur when he should have come clean and actively seeking Mordred’s death when the kid doesn’t deserve it). He had gone from being so pure and happy in season 1 to this miserable thing that can’t even see the possibility of things getting better. Colin’s acting was fabulous but doesn’t save this episode and most of season 5 from being one long train wreck. Thank goodness for fanfic!
4th October 2021 @ 9:25 pm
This episode felt weird for me, because in some ways, I appreciated it more upon re-watch *because* of this podcast. A big element I didn’t focus as much on in initial watches is Merlin’s descent into tragic manipulation – and as a result, I just hated the tragedy of S5 so much. At least now I feel like there have been seeds planted for where his character goes.
That being said – this episode does ultimately anger me. In some ways this episode seems to try to be a mirror to Beginning of the End in S1, which for me was a MUCH stronger tragic episode regarding whether or not to save Mordred. There were clear lessons from that episode; the challenges were clear, and yes, I admit that I felt better at the end because Merlin clearly made the right choice. Here – the stakes are so forced and transactional – the trading of Mordred’s life for this huge life altering decision feels completely unearned? I hate when it seems like on shows that the characters know it’s time to wrap things up for a finale, and that’s the only impetus for action.
I do not think Merlin’s decision is correct – as he initially felt in S1, trading a life for an unknown future is immoral and terrible. But, I get where folks are coming from – there is zero nuance in the problem and the resolution.
I know Arthur’s comment about Merlin not smiling in three days doesn’t really fit in context, but it makes me smile, especially after reading a fanfic that I believe someone here wrote and posted at one point about Arthur trying to make his frown right side up 🙂 (It could have been also a fic you recommended on the show, apologies that I can’t remember which one!). Of course, Arthur’s selective perceptiveness is just hilarious at this point.
4th October 2021 @ 10:54 pm
Oh yes, you’re right! I did rec that fic in one of our episodes!! Awww, now I wanna go read it again hahaha
7th October 2021 @ 12:52 pm
“I hate when it seems like on shows that the characters know it’s time to wrap things up for a finale, and that’s the only impetus for action”
I agree entirely with this so much!
4th October 2021 @ 4:42 am
As usual, so many astute and insightful comments! Thank you, Ruth and Michelle, too, for a great episode. I was driving in my car and shouting, “Yes! Yes! YES!” I felt so fantastically validated 😂
I, too, was practically vibrating with frustration when I first watched this episode. Wow, what a kick to the gut it is, and no, the story doesn’t make sense so that kick to the gut doesn’t either! I decided not to rewatch it because I’ve been crazy busy but also…I just don’t want to go through that right now! I can’t even bring myself to attempt a poem.
However, everyone raving about the acting makes me want to revisit it someday. Another commenter was saying how the cast didn’t have to give so much to the script, the story, etc., but they still decided to give 100%…yes, that, exactly. The cast is what kept me coming back!
One thought I had while listening to the podcast: in a way, I think this episode dealt more directly with the “Magic Problem” than maybe any before it – at least, it felt like this story brought Merlin and Arthur to a place where they were in positions to change the situation. Then, frustratingly, it goes absolutely nowhere. So, it got me thinking…what was the point of making magic illegal in this story? What was the point of making the protagonist a part of this persecuted minority? Because one would think (and I have to believe that in season 1 they set out to tell this story) that a major story arc would be seeing justice done for the protagonist and this minority.
SPOILERY BITS; that doesn’t happen. I can understand the choice to make Merlin a tragic figure in that he fails to bring magic back to Camelot, but like the podcast and other commenters have said already, the writing doesn’t pull it off. Not to mention the fact that it’s a pretty serious departure from this very famous, very well established source material. Which again, ok, could have been cool if, and it’s a BIG if, the writing was there to support it. So again, what was the point?! Why create a Moses who then fails to free the Jews?! (Yes, I sometimes think of this Merlin as being allegorical to Moses 😂 ).
I personally do not like this choice of story to tell hahah. But even if I disagree with the choice, if the rest of the execution comes together to make it believable, than I can get onboard. Sadly, that is just not at all the case 🙁
4th October 2021 @ 1:17 pm
“One thought I had while listening to the podcast: in a way, I think this episode dealt more directly with the “Magic Problem” than maybe any before it – at least, it felt like this story brought Merlin and Arthur to a place where they were in positions to change the situation. Then, frustratingly, it goes absolutely nowhere. So, it got me thinking…what was the point of making magic illegal in this story? What was the point of making the protagonist a part of this persecuted minority? Because one would think (and I have to believe that in season 1 they set out to tell this story) that a major story arc would be seeing justice done for the protagonist and this minority. ”
THIS. 100% this.
4th October 2021 @ 3:34 am
This episode really exhausted me, but I heartily agree with what has been said above about the confusion of it all and also the pure acting perfection. I just have a few things I wanted to add that I noticed while I was watching:
Arthur and Gwen’s relationship is so sugary sweet but also estranged now. The way their dialogue is written there seems to be so much distance between them, like they don’t understand one another anymore and it’s all just pleasantries. But underneath it all, I feel like there is a lot that is going unsaid for some reason. I notice it often in Gwen’s face, how she keeps herself from saying everything she wants to or is choosing not to pick a fight about whatever it is. Perhaps in Gwen’s transition to being a lady, she began bottling everything up because proper women are supposed to hold their tongues? But also, her character has fundamentally changed and become so one-dimensional. No longer is she challenging Arthur to be the best man he can be, as mentioned by Britney. These past few episodes, she’s been holding Arthur back constantly from being Arthur, the man who risks his life for servants and knights alike. She’s actively trying to get him to be an inactive king like Uther had been, and she keeps reinforcing that the lives of Arthur’s knights are worth less than Arthur’s over and over again. For me, it’s really cemented in the scene where she talks about Mordred doing his duty so that Arthur could continue to do his. And before that, Arthur mentions that Gwen called Mordred impetuous. Where did that come from? Gwen has been so cynical lately!
Gahhh, the lighting in Arthur’s room when he and Merlin are talking about why the Disir have passed judgement on him!! It’s so high contrast and almost uncomfortable to look at, like in an interrogation room or on a stage. There’s even a bit of almost circling that Arthur does as he goes about the room. It conveys so perfectly that Merlin is being put on the spot this whole episode and he doesn’t know what is the right thing to say or do. Then, he refuses to give a real answer to Arthur’s questions and retreats into HARDCORE shadows and uneasy music starts playing. The beauty of that scene!!!
The grave scene and the look at the end between Merlin and Mordred gives me so much hope that YES if Merlin told Mordred of his destiny, they could totally work together to fix it and Mordred would come to good and not evil. But all Merlin has been doing lately is coldly pushing Mordred away, even as Mordred keeps making an effort to be friends. It’s an interesting parallel to his former relationship with Morgana. Merlin has made that bed and laid in it once, and now he’s making it all over again. At the very least, I would have expected him to learn something about keeping your friends close and your enemies closer. But alas, he did not.
And finally, apparently Merlin is just unhappy all the time now to the point that even Arthur has accepted it as normal Merlin behavior. Arthur says, “If he died and was granted eternal happiness, I do believe he’d find reason to be miserable.” What HAS happened to the boy who walked into Gaius’s chamber just a few years ago? It breaks my heart.
5th October 2021 @ 12:09 am
And finally, apparently Merlin is just unhappy all the time now to the point that even Arthur has accepted it as normal Merlin behavior. Arthur says, “If he died and was granted eternal happiness, I do believe he’d find reason to be miserable.” What HAS happened to the boy who walked into Gaius’s chamber just a few years ago? It breaks my heart. –
I know. It’s the thing I cry about most, especially since it’s just going to get worse. But a disturbing part of this is also that when Merlin says that “he grew up and he learned the meaning of duty” I feel like the show is making a point that growing up means you’ll have to end up miserable and resigned like Merlin. That’s not really a great message and it isn’t true.
3rd October 2021 @ 11:53 pm
Okay, I really wrangled with myself whether I should even watch this episode, whether I really want to put myself through the pain of it. From the first time I watched it, it just made me very, very miserable. And now that you have analysed how little sense it all makes, I am additionally furious! But here we go…this may be the shortest comment I have ever written.
I like that we acknowledge that Merlin has been part of the knights’ training for many years and can surprise Arthur with his knowledge of sword-fighting. I also like that Arthur isn’t quite as surprised as we might expect, meaning that he already knew how much Merlin had paid attention.
We use some really unique camera angles and blocking in this episode. There are Gaius’s stairs being used and shot from a new angle. I love how long we linger on Arthur, Merlin and his knights when they ride out of the courtyard the first time. And when Arthur changes behind the screen we use it as a split screen, showing both Merlin in front and Arthur behind the changing screen. It’s a very equal set-up and speaks of their relationship and intimacy. Arthur is expecting Merlin to keep standing right on the other side of the screen while they simply carry on their conversation. Perhaps the screen represents the very little and insignificant things that still separate them? This also goes along with the sheer number of times Arthur calls for Merlin in this episode – to call him to ride by his side, to warm himself, to toast Mordred, to cheer up – I have counted 12. And that’s mostly not counting Arthur’s sentences that end in ‘Merlin’ addressing him directly or directing his ideas towards him specifically.
Actually, I can’t stop gushing about how gorgeous everything looks. Remember the washed-out opening double? This one is simply saturated with colour and light and contrasts. It’s so amazing and perhaps chosen to mirror Merlin’s line about the life he feels in the valley of the Disir? So, like always, various individual departments of the productions do a phenomenal job while others are rather abysmal, meaning that the sum total is only just about okay with red, glaring question marks.
In long-shot riding scenes, I have now got a game called ‘Spot Lancelot’s ghost’. Because they use quite a lot of older footage, there are quite a few scenes (probably taken from The Darkest Hour) where Lancelot or his white horse are on screen. This episode, I spotted Lancelot at least 3 times! I guess there is a lot of riding back and forth.
“You have waged war on the people of magic.” – Has he? Arthur’s kingship is based on nothing but statements, often conflicting. Some say he has been better for this kingdom than his father, more just and fairer, and Osgar and the Disir say this. What is the truth and why couldn’t we show any of it. Is this a TV show or a TV tell? Perhaps Arthur’s offence for which he is judged is his contempt and disdain for the Old Religion. Uther waged war on it but, in this and his fear, did acknowledge its power and importance. For him it was real and dangerous. But Arthur is dismissive and ignorant about it – perhaps that is why he is judged? But then, that doesn’t explain how he has waged war on the people of magic as Osgar says. Rather, he maybe didn’t heed them and their concerns at all. And again we face the problem that we have never been told how magic users and the followers of the Old Religion are linked for we know that they are not one and the same.
There you go: that’s all I have to say about this episode except that I am mighty glad it’s done and dusted!
4th October 2021 @ 2:39 pm
“Is this a tv show or a tv tell?”
Love this haha
4th October 2021 @ 3:35 pm
😊
3rd October 2021 @ 11:20 pm
I’m actually finding it quite hard to think of what to write for this episode, which I would not have expected prior to watching it again! I think there’s just so much in my brain regarding it haha that picking out coherent thoughts is proving difficult haha. I will try:
Colin’s performance: it really is the most beautiful thing and reminded me of why I love this show. These actors didn’t really have to put so much into it, but they do. I’ve heard conductors talk about a piece of music saying to find a foothold, a way in to it, even if you don’t like everything, find some way and it will transform it for you and for the music itself. They must have found something in this story, in each other, the legends the characters etc that they could hold onto and they poured so much into a little family teatime show. Their commitment to the story is extraordinary, and it is indeed transformed because of them. It didn’t have to mean so much, but I really believe it’s that investment that makes it so – and from the way they talk about it, it seems everyone working on it gave so much to it. Just wanted to call that out!
The little smile he gives after he’s explained how he knew the place was sacred is so small and raw, and then immediately drops it. We haven’t seen him smile in ages – it’s almost as though he won’t let himself, he instantly remembers the weight on his shoulders and Arthur’s looming fate.
The Merlin Mordred scene is lovely. I do think it’s interesting that Mordred has spoken a few of these more poetic lines now – “the love that binds us” and now about going “unmarked”. They’ve also been spoken directly to Merlin, in private. I suppose I’d assume that Merlin would be the more philosophical, wise speaker and Mordred the more aggressive. An interesting flip of roles perhaps? Or maybe just me imagining it haha
Another role reversal is Merlin and Gaius – once upon a time, it would have been Merlin persuading Gaius to let him use magic to save someone, regardless of the consequences. He really has grown up…😔
I’m sorry if this reads a bit hurried! Michelle, I hope you are feeling better! Thank you both for the episode as always!
2nd October 2021 @ 5:29 pm
Wow! Everyone has so many thoughtful comments about this episode!
I also like the exchange between Gwen and Merlin when she asks him to look after Arthur. I wish we would have done more with this though. Gwen needs something to do besides be the boring wife/queen this season. I wish we would have had tiny scenes throughout this season of Gwen picking up on Merlin’s magic. She is queen and lives in the castle now. She would be able to see even more of Arthur’s and Merlin’s interactions and maybe pick up on tiny hints. I feel like if we had only a couple scenes the past few episodes that hinted at us that she is suspicious of Merlin, but not willing to say anything then this scene here where she asks a servant to look after the king would be more impactful and interesting especially since we haven’t seen Gwen and Merlin be friends lately… Also, her being suspicious but not willing to rat Merlin out would be more in line with her character then the Gwen we see later who is very dismissive of magic and magical people. She never use to be this way. She was always kind and open hearted. Has being queen really hardened her so much? Did she also “grow up”? Is that the message this show is telling us? When you grow up you turn cold (Gwen/Merlin), calculating (Merlin), closed minded (Gwen/Arthur/Morgana/Merlin) and slightly insane (Morgana/Merlin)? I also STRONGLY dislike Gwen’s little “sweet” comment about how if they knew Arthur like she does, they would love him? OMG! WHAT HAPPENED TO GWEN?! What happened to the Gwen who use to call Arthur out on his bullshit? What happened to the Gwen who would tell Arthur to have an open heart?? Oh yeah…. she “grew up”. Gwen use to be clever and honest! She should be saying the same thing Merlin should be saying! “You are still treating them as outsiders! Magic is still illegal! No wonder they are angry!!!”
I don’t think I will ever understand the arrogance the knights and Arthur have when confronting magical people. Do they REALLY think a sword would do anything to a magical person? All of them have push magic and can fling the silly little knights away without any issue. (sigh) Why aren’t the more weary by now? I mean it’s been years and years and years of dealing with sorcery.
Question… If the old ways/religion/magic is strongest in this place as Gaius says, shouldn’t Merlin’s magic be the strongest here too? But later on… SPOILERS… Merlin goes to the Crystal Cave to restore his magic. Is this proof that there is a difference between the old religion and magic? (I really really really wish I could get some clarification between magic and the old religion!)
I LOVE how Merlin describes sensing a sacred place. It’s just beautiful and probably one of the reasons this episode is so high on my List of Destiny. ❤ I think it’s because that’s how I feel when I go hiking in the mountains. I know some said they see this conversation as almost revealing Merlin’s magic, but I don’t. I think being in tune with the natural world around you just shows you are very intuitive.
Bradley’s little shake of the head I could rewatch over and over and be happy until the end of time.
Colin’s performance in the camp fire scene makes me cry every time. It is beautiful! There are no words…
I WISH Arthur would be more intuitive himself and ASK MERLIN WHY HE IS CONFLICTED! It is so OBVIOUS Merlin is having an internal battle. If it was me, I would need to talk this out. I would want to look at all the pros and cons and I would want to have a REAL conversation about it, not just this “No place for Magic in Camelot” statement and then be done with it! Don’t get me wrong… I LOVE the performances in this scene, but I wish there was more discussion. Of course, it probably wouldn’t emotionally land like this if they did…
It is interesting that the lesson Merlin seems to have learned from the Crystal Cave “Let the person of threat die” did not serve him in this instance. No wonder Merlin is all dark and twisted these days. He is all full of conflict, sadness, prophecy and misery. I do love his downhill spiral though, even if it is difficult to watch sometimes. Like I’ve said before, I am a fan of Tragedy.
Not looking forward to next week…. this one creeps me out.
3rd October 2021 @ 10:07 am
I was gonna pull out your question to answer on air, as we generally like to discuss questions on podcast, but there’s just no point, because it makes no sense!! 😭😭😭 seriously, it’s so so frustrating, and every time I take a deep breath and want to try and work it out again, I realise that it’s not a complicated maths problem which I’m too dumb to solve. There is no solution, because they didn’t write it to have internal logic. And it’s so frustrating! Argh!!!
In regards to continuing the fireside conversation about Arthur’s choice…
It’s where the show always runs into issues, isn’t it? Because it doesn’t write complicated enough problems, meaning that it needs its characters to be bullheaded / inattentive / dumb / ignorant / arrogant, because even 20 seconds of further interrogation would make the whole thing fall apart… and that’s what’s happening here. Cause yeah, totally agree. Merlin says ‘there’s no place for magic in Camelot’ and Arthur (and anyone!!!!) would surely immediately follow up with ‘why do you think so?’, but if Arthur did that the episode would collapse
4th October 2021 @ 3:03 pm
I agree entirely. I wish she was still the Gwen who yelled at Arthur for not having humility or even just out-right telling him he sounds like a pig when he snores, and THAT was in season 2! Why can’t we have that Gwen back, who now she’s his wife, should be MORE open in her opinion and expressing to Arthur when he’s being a git or making a mistake, and still letting Arthur be Arthur. In a s2 Gwen way, not this s5 Gwen.
This was my opinion, that magic and the old religion are separate, just like if there was a god in real life, then a religion is in their own ways worshipping said god. There’s magic, and then there’s the ways two types of people in the Merlin world are worshipping magic. The druids and the high priestesses. This is why I think it’s a good thing Merlin told Arthur to reject the disir. Most followers of the OR have been shady and they have their own agenda. They have their temples like the isle of the blessed. But the crystal cave I feel is a legit magically touched area that remains hidden from OR people, in case they abuse it.
5th October 2021 @ 2:36 am
-This was my opinion, that magic and the old religion are separate, just like if there was a god in real life, then a religion is in their own ways worshipping said god. –
This helps a lot! I just wish the show would give us some examples or maybe spell it out a little more for us easily confused folks. Haha!
2nd October 2021 @ 4:28 pm
-This is coming out a little garbled but basically it was never about what Arthur would decide, it was about what Merlin would decide, and he had already been pushed so far down his current path that the Disir’s gamble didn’t pay off, and Merlin made the wrong choice.-
I think you are absolutely right that the disir did this to test Merlin and not Arthur. After all, Arthur is basically a pawn of Merlin’s. I wish that wasn’t so and that the writers would have taken more care in developing Arthur’s character, but here we are. Also this shows that perfectly: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c3/e2/05/c3e2056200644900f729d3415e179dea.jpg
Like I said earlier to someone’s comment…. Not sure if it was the wrong choice since we wouldn’t want a possibly corrupt and angry religion deity to take over Camelot. All this time I had been viewing Colin’s beautiful performance as conflict between having magic be accepted in Camelot vs having Arthur safe and sound, but maybe it was deeper than that. Perhaps he was also conflicted about how he HAS to tell Arthur to deny the Disir in order to keep Camelot “safe” from religion tyranny and then sealing his fate in losing Arthur…his platonic soulmate? But then we see the end of the episode and Merlin says “How could I have been so stupid?” So maybe there wasn’t any deeper thought process going on….
2nd October 2021 @ 4:30 pm
Omg! I think I am going to do this like every episode this Season! But computer says my reply didn’t work and then I add a little more and resubmit it and it turns out it DID work and now I have a comment in reply to Esme and then also a comment at the top of the comment queue. Apparently I am computer challenged….
3rd October 2021 @ 10:09 am
Hahaha don’t worry!
I’m on my phone at the moment, so can’t fix it, but if I remember tonight I can jig it about 🙂
1st October 2021 @ 2:12 am
Hello! I found this podcast and show a weeks ago and finally caught up and am really enjoying it. I’ve really liked seeing the discussion on the podcast and the website and finally wanted to comment because this episode really annoyed me.
I was really looking forward to this episode because the ‘unmarked in death as in life’ scene is actually what made me watch the show and the episode was pretty disappointing. I don’t have much to say that you guys haven’t already discussed so I’m just going to ramble about the things that bug me in no particular order.
Something that really bothers me with this season so far and in this episode in particular is that I can’t quite work out what I’m supposed to feel about Arthur and the knights. He has used magic for his own benefit while still outlawing it like Uther, sorcerers are still not permitted marked graves, Merlin and Mordred both risk losing their jobs and entire lives assuming they’re not executed and he seems to be accepting whatever Uther said about magic before the purge without question, so am I supposed to still like him? Or has the show just not realised how bad they make him look to us?
Also a really small thing but heresy? Are we finally bringing in religion that’s not the old religion? If not how is this dude a heretic? Since when does Gwaine have such strong views on religion. On a related note, do we ever find out what Osgar’s crime was? Why was the knight who got killed trying to arrest him in the first place? I don’t know if it’s deliberate or did they just not think about it.
I haven’t seen the rest of season 5 yet but I know most of the big spoilers so I’m curious to see if we ever see any conflict from Mordred about his new role as a knight upholding the system that would have him killed.
Regarding Merlin I really get what they’re trying to do but as you’ve discussed at great length I just don’t get why Merlin doesn’t murder him. Apart from that though I really like season 5 Merlin as a natural consequence of everything he’s been through these past 10 years and I completely buy it.
Something nice to end with, the show is really pretty and everyone is doing great! I really like the music but do not know enough about it to comment on it.
Looking forward to the Gwen episode next week!
1st October 2021 @ 9:56 pm
You make some really good points!
This episode does start to throw us into the hot and heavy subjects of ‘IS Arthur worth supporting after all this time’ and ‘do our characters have actual religious/spiritual beliefs’. Gwaine’s writing causes him to go from a well travelled, open minded man with only indifference to everything, to being a closed off, highly opinionated man who suddenly hates magic and morally grey people not unlike himself!
And Arthur has become as hypocritical as his father, he must know magic has its good qualities, as he has seen some good things over the seasons (not that he remembers), as well as trusted it enough to use it himself to cure his father. An act he very nearly skewered his own father for doing when he learned of it. He’s less murdery about magic but definitely isn’t totally peaceful about it either, he kinda treats magic like a wild animal. If left to it’s own devices, he leaves it be, but god help it if it wonders nonchalantly near his stuff. Yet he would take it as his pet if it let him…
I wish this Oscar was a well known character before this episode. Like you say, his crimes aren’t clear. Before we hear he’s ‘murdered’ a knight at the garrison, his only crime apparently seems to be ‘being a sorcerer’. As far as we have been given the impression, Arthur has not been arresting and executing sorcerers at all during his reign for simply having magic. Unless osgar had murdered many more people before and they don’t mention it, he otherwise doesn’t stand out enough to be given such a mighty rep in the city…
3rd October 2021 @ 10:14 am
Welcome to the website!
Also… you found the podcast a few weeks ago and finally (finally, you say?!?) caught up?
I don’t actually know how many hours of D&C podcast that is, but I do know that it’s A LOT!!!
So yeah, major kudos for catching up!! Haha
M Xx
30th September 2021 @ 10:24 pm
God how I hate this episode. Listening to you shaking with rage really confirmed to me that it was the right decision to sit this episode out and not rewatch it. I’ll probably never watch this episode ever again to be honest.
Thank you for articulating my rage and frustration with this episode so perfectly. I was just so sad and mad after this episode I could never say so many smart things about how everything is wrong about this like you did.
The reason why I hate this episode, just like you basically said, is that it tries so hard to make it a tragedy, even though it makes no sense. The story didn’t get here naturally. They forced Merlin to make a horribly bad decision, a decision that doesn’t align with anything he’s recently done. It’s so rootless and just doesn’t make sense. We basically just get Merlin be illogically stupid in order for the story to become the tragedy the writers apparently wanted to have and setting the “groundwork” for the rest of the season and the finale.
There was no reason for this to happen. There was no reason to cause Merlin, Camelot, or the audience so much pain. It was just there to make you feel awful and it wasn’t even earned. Would it have hurt the last few episodes to finally make magic legal? No, I don’t think so. We finally got Arthur to get to this point to question the big picture of magic as a king and seriously doubt the current laws and sentiments, why the hell are we throwing that under the bus for the sake of illogical tragedy??
I’m getting mad again just writing this. I’m amazed by how high you ended up putting it in the list of destiny. The pure rage and frustration this episode causes me makes me want to put it on the bottom of all lists of destiny ever. I’m just going to continue to ignore this episode existed to allow myself to love Merlin in peace.
3rd October 2021 @ 10:19 am
Also, wouldn’t it up the tragedy, if Arthur legalised magic, we all realised that actually, Camelot can thrive with magic in the land, but Merlin still thinks Mordred is going to kill Arthur (because it’s his destiny!), still mistrusts him, still suspects him, and ultimately something still happens to turn Mordred against Arthur, and things unfold just as they did…
EXTRA tragedy… no?
30th September 2021 @ 8:14 pm
Also, tiny geeky point because I like picking out OR-related worldbuilding: the use of the phrase “triple goddess” in this episode makes me laugh because a) as CoreyAdara pointed out, the mother, maiden, and crone represent stages in a woman’s life, not actual deities, and b) although there are have been trios of goddesses/fates/etc since ancient times*, the phrase “triple goddess” is a neo-pagan belief dating to the late 19th or early 20th century (eg Jane Ellen Harrison, who is referred to as “controversial” by both Wikipedia writers and the historian Ronald Hutton) and which I believe is most often used by that name specifically (ie “the Triple Goddess” as opposed to merely a trio of beings or states) in Wicca, which was created in the 1950s.
That’s not a criticism of the show – there’s nothing wrong with using contemporary language and the image of three female deities/seers/etc has been around forever. They were likely evoking Macbeth’s witches as much as anything else. BUT it’s funny to me personally to hear them use neopagan (especially Wiccan) phrases specifically as if they’re really ancient and mysterious. Like, nope, not mysterious, in fact we have photos of the founder of Wicca (Gerald Gardner).
All of that being said, I do wonder about the implications of neopaganism being seemingly the main source for OR stuff, as opposed to a heavier emphasis on actual pre-Christian beliefs. Neopaganism is very individualistic, for a start, with an emphasis on following one’s own desires so long as you’re not hurting others (“an it harm none, do what ye will” (Wicca), possibly based on “do what thou wilt is the whole of the will” (Aleister Crowley, Thelema)), and for all the early seasons talk of “magical kin” and “for the good of all magic users” I think that’s far more of what we see from actual sorcerers on the show. It’s just interesting!
*when I was fact-checking myself Wikipedia listed the following: “Tridevi (Saraswati, Lakshmi, Kali), the Charites (Graces), the Horae (Seasons, of which there were three in the ancient Hellenistic reckoning), and the Moirai (Fates). Some deities generally depicted as singular also included triplicate aspects. In Stymphalos, Hera was worshiped as a Girl, a Grown-up, and a Widow”
1st October 2021 @ 10:15 pm
Ooh very interesting 🙂
I’m so fascinated by the show’s sheer skills at skirting around Religion by subtly accidentally making it all about religion. Whether it’s modern or ancient, in real life or in fiction, in the words of Sherlock; ‘the wheel turns, nothing is ever new’.
I love that the triple goddess is more a thing now, if only it actually was a deliberate crux of the show to reveal how in the end, it’s people acting on their beliefs, not that destiny is a real force. Words have power and passed-down whispers are shown as either the drive or the road block in Merlin’s own ambition. If this is to be this in-universe version of a deity, or what only the people of the OR believe it is, she’s not actually pulling any strings or writing paths at all. At this point I’m imaging the ‘triple goddess’ and either the fraudster wizard of Oz, or god in ‘good omens’ with the “ineffable plan”.
3rd October 2021 @ 10:22 am
Thanks for that research and knowledge, that’s super interesting! I’ve added it to my season 5 round up document, as it’s a bigger picture topic, so thanks for that!!
30th September 2021 @ 7:13 pm
Glad you guys had a somewhat nice week, bless you Michele for spending it ill, I hope you’re alright now.
So, this episode is probably the one I had to give myself the most amount of motivation to watch. I waited til the last day after 2 weeks, I was just kinda dreading it haha.
So yeah last time, I got really excited over the recent revelation that, structure and time-wise, if there HAD to be a few years time skip, perhaps it would have worked better between ‘Another’s sorrow’ and this one. And thank you very much for your thoughts on that, I totally get how it would seem a little weird to plonk a large time skip like that into the middle of the last season. But I personally stand by my idea haha. Though it’s not the Merlin-norm, I imagine they could have gotten away with it, like Ruth says, if they decided to split the last season into two themes for once. One half showing us more of Arthur achieving the peaceful Camelot and getting the hovering Odin problem out the way, the second focusing on Mordred’s development and the prophecy falling into place. They could have even started the disir ep with Arthur and Merlin with a new slightly older look so we could work out for ourselves time has gone by. Plus then there would be a better visual age gap between the main characters and Mordred, who’s still supposed to be the baby now. Whilst there’s been established peace between Camelot, Nemeth, Odin’s lands and everywhere else, magic is still a back-burner topic and so ‘The Disir’ declaring their judgement now whilst Merlin has still done nothing but hide and not encourage his king to accept magic, it kinda makes sense to me. But that’s just me 😛
The closeness between Arthur and Mordred is so teeth-rotting sweet. I sometimes rewatch the series with the mindset that Arthur and Mordred are unknowingly father and son, like in the legends. It’s so interesting to watch our Arthur pass through the series, from being “just a boy” with daddy issues to now being old enough to start showing his affectionate paternal side with someone else. We don’t really see many roles in the show younger than the main characters, even in the background, it’s like Camelot is secretly Vulgaria from Chitty chitty bang bang, no kids to be seen haha. Nor do we see young squires chasing after their knights. Now we finally have Mordred as a permanent resident and we finally get to see in what manner Arthur treats the younger generation under his command. Whether or not this is typical for all trainees, or Mordred is just becoming Arthur’s favourite, it’s refreshing seeing how Arthur and co are becoming the older generation now, and Mordred is the youngster settling into the big city like Merlin once was. Now if Gaius wasn’t still hobbling around as an old reminder to the past, Merlin could have taken over his position and Arthur and Merlin would clearly be the new Uther and Gaius…
I like the conversation between Arthur and Merlin, its realistic and domestic still, and the dialogue doesn’t feel too exposition-y or out of place, considering this is after three more years we haven’t seen of them doing this same stuff. Of course Arthur knows Merlin must have learnt a lot from observation over the years but he doesn’t sound over the top in his mock-surprise that Merlin ‘has been paying attention’. After all, I’ve been made to go to football matches with my dad for years, doesn’t mean I am interested enough to ever remember what the bloody off-side rule is 😛 And of course, Merlin can still be weary of Mordred being a knight, whether its because of the stupid prophecy or concern that he is still young and unpredictable. At this point, if the three year skip HAD been moved to here, Merlin would have likely softened to Mordred, or least let his guard down, as has been the case in some fanfictions. It would make the ‘betrayal’ at the end (of all things) more hard-hitting if both Arthur and Merlin have grown fond of Mordred over his time in Camelot. Merlin could have spent time with Mordred out in the forests, helping him control his emotionally driven impulses to better hide his magic in the city. Not help him USE magic more, since Merlin can still have the vision haunt him, but guide Mordred enough that Merlin’s between a Gaius and a reluctant tutor to him and gets a little strung along due to Mordred’s likeable and relatable personality. It would remind us of Mordred’s druid origins and also how much more uniquely powerful he is than all of them, as well as suggest his ‘likeability’ and innocence is down to how he’s had to survive all these years. I said before in the ‘Death song of Uther’ ep, that in a deleted scene, Mordred is the only other person in the banquet room besides Gwen looking at Arthur, like his power is not only connected to his own emotions, but to reading other people’s too. He does the same thing that depressed people do, he’s smiley and bubbly in company, but when he thinks no-one’s looking, he’s very quiet and within himself. I love Mordred as a character, for the parts we see and then for what we don’t see. I wish the writers spent more time on him this season so we could see a gradual descent of his morals and perhaps sanity. Then again, I’m probably still in the legend-y mindset that Mordred could be Arthur’s son, and any possible unstable personality we could see from him would be down to that (like Joffrey Lannister, GoT). Long story short, Merlin’s later comment that ‘he likes the boy too’, would ring more true if we had already seen him start to warm to him, rather than just staring daggers at him constantly up to this stage..
Leon nearly runs someone down on his horse when riding into the city! Dunno if that was a mistake on the extra’s part and they kept it in or it was meant to happen and that was a neat dive, but damn!
I wish this Osgar was an established and famous figure of the Old Religion mentioned at different times on the show before now. The Old Religion seems to be a very female orientated practice, is this man considered one of the lowest in the pecking order like a pet dog made to give a message, or is being one of the few males giving him one of the best and highly valued positions, having been trusted with the coin by the mouthpiece themselves. For a sorcerer there is nothing significant about him, no signature look or special powers, he flings people away like everyone else. He was expecting death, or wasn’t he? He’s apparently murdered people, what? To get attention of the high Camelot court, to lure them out to meet him? Murdered a knight he somehow knew was close to the king so the king himself would come out. All this for this one act as a Martyr? Having a follower murder an innocent person doesn’t give the Disir’s proposition a great selling point.
Sir Ranulf could have also been an established talky knight since at least the start of the season, at most since the start of the show. The emotional impact is not there. It feels odd throwing a name in like this to up the stakes and give Arthur a personal need to ride out and get this sorcerer himself, when we have seen nothing of this man or Arthur hanging out with him. Arthur never mentions any friends from childhood and now sadly one has died and Arthur’s reaction doesn’t quite match that right in my opinion, no matter how ‘manly’ he’s trying to be about it. If everyone’s reaction to hearing Arthur declare he will personally deal with the problem seemed OTT in ‘another’s sorrow’, their reactions in this episode seem legit, Percival’s squinty eyed confused expression nearly matches mine haha. Afterwards when Gwen even sounds reasonable and refers to the previous episode (for once!), it’s clear this Ranulf did not exist til just now, or else wouldn’t a loving wife know who all her husband’s close friends are. Gwen has of course known Arthur longer than we realise. Otherwise it would be more realistic she knows that Arthur taking this personally would be as if this Osgar had murdered sir Leon or Elyan.
I would have liked it if at this stage Mordred had only just gotten trained enough to be knighted. The conversation between him and Arthur in his chambers is lovely but it could have gone another way, Arthur telling Mordred he can come with him to the mountains and Mordred could say “this is such a great honor, but I’m not yet a knight.” To which Arthur responds “You will be by this evening. You’re ready, you’ve earned it.” And then we see him knighted and such like we saw in ‘Arthur’s bane’. He’ll still be inexperienced, but surely after his life in hiding, he has street smarts in the outside world. Or is that something else that Arthur has conveniently forgotten…? I admittedly had not twigged until you two said though, that Mordred came into the personal chambers of the king and queen and did not use proper social etiquette to acknowledge Gwen’s presence, neither a bow in greeting nor a nod in goodbye. Yeah that was odd!
Love the exchange between Merlin and Gwen as he rides out, Merlin’s little smile and look as he turns his horse is so familiar and mutually fond, I could almost believe their friendship dynamic was back to the way it was, Almost. Would have been nice if she showed a tad concern for Merlin and everyone else too. She felt Lancelot’s first death was her doing because she asked him to look after Arthur. These words in her view be jinxed! I agree with you guys though, they should have done more with her.
Melding the saddle, oh how I love it! 😂 I never saw anything the knights were doing as ‘bullying’. Except when it was with Merlin back in s4. With Mordred, he is young but now on their class level, what they are doing isn’t making his life harder or hitting any nerves, it’s just teasing and cute pranks they can laugh about later. With Merlin it wasn’t, coz he was the only servant serving all of them and caused him to skip eating and making him more hard work to do.
Little mistake: Gwaine’s cape is slightly teared, but he won’t tear it until the next episode 😮
Elyan and Gwaine trying to apprehend Osgar appears a little stupid to me. I get they don’t have many lines these days, but the way they are in this scene is like they are two kids playing knights, overexaggerating how much they love they’ve just caught the bad guy. Particularly the line “It would be our pleasure.” It makes me cringe. The man was coming with you, dudes! Why insist on shoving your swords in the face of an enemy who said he would come quietly? And so, this famous and talked up Heretic Osgar guy is introduced and dead in about 2 minutes of screen time. Bravo, Gwaine..
“Sorcerers are not permitted a marked grave”, JEEZ what good exactly has Arthur done at all on the magic front since becoming king of equality?? Magic people aren’t even given the respect of a gravestone, druids are still left to their own devices, etc. I’m starting to get why lack of communication and/or action would lead to more uprising. Did Arthur make Merlin leave Balinor’s body buried without a marker in the ‘last dragonlord’? Did they even take the time to dig a hole? God, I hope so.
Arthur is constantly progressing then regressing, teetering on the fence of being respectful for others’ beliefs and keeping promises to people magical and non magical one episode, to being a complete moron and dismissive and rude about such things in another. What is wrong with this guy’s character writing! It reminds me of what Ruth said in the ‘Labyrinth of gedref’ podcast, where Arthur’s character was already honorable, good and selfless before, but had to regress at the start just for him to relearn all the lesson he should already know by the end. Arthur, after ten years, should not be this pig-headed and triumphant about dealing with a man pleading his faith towards him before he dies, saying ‘what nonsense is this’ straight to his face, and then casually lobs the coin the dead man regarded as a spiritual artifact at Merlin claiming it to be a mere trinket to be mounted as a symbol of success. What, Arthur? Next to the unicorn horn and fisher king trident? Coz that’s how Uther would be in this situation right now. ‘Rule your own way’, like heck! I really don’t feel anything for Arthur this episode!
The timing is a little off, Arthur and Merlin only just got back, walk through the castle to Gaius’ chambers, Gaius already has the coin and had asked to see them and tell them about the coin he can’t have been handed yet. This can’t all be the same day surely? Or has it been “three days” since the mission and now Gaius is summoning the king to talk about the coin he’s researched, it wasn’t very clear…
“I’m old enough to be wary of dismissing other people’s beliefs.” Go, Gaius! I’m almost liking you in this episode. You tell him! Like you said, whether they actually got their orders from a real deity, or they BELIEVE that they did, they are gonna act on it and real casualties and consequences will come from it, as they have done sending out Osgar. Arthur’s friend Ranulf died regardless of this being superstition or not. Beliefs don’t harm people. People acting on behalf of their beliefs do.
I don’t know if it would defeat the purpose of the judgement or the runemark specifically given to Arthur if it could perhaps have been hinted that this judgement was given to other individuals throughout generations and not just singling Arthur out. It’s probably what makes Arthur so defensive about it, that he’s tried to do right things and brought peace and safety generally to the kingdom but he is being picked on. His father was a mass murderer, yet he could continue for 20 years without a ‘point of no return’ deal. I agree we needed the ‘judgement is wasted on a man who won’t listen’ line, but maybe this could be before the higher forces learned not to give judgement on just any human. Maybe Gaius could fish out some old fables of other rulers who were given a runemark and the events that befelled them whichever their decisions led them. Uther, even! Gaius could say he’s seen such a mark belonging to Uther when he had been king for a while (long before the purge however we know Uther still didn’t treat magic fairly) and he dismissed it and refused to let in the shifty Old Religion. Which his decision led to the high priestess ‘cuckoos in the court’ (Viviene, Nimueh, Morgana) and ultimately his set downward spiraling path. Created by the Old Religion, NOT the gods. Which is what this all comes down to but I will get to that when the time comes.
I’m noticing more and more that this season is getting lazier, there are (and will be) shots recycled from other seasons. When the knights were riding earlier, there was a shot of them riding from behind and that was from ‘Servant of two masters’. When Merlin calls the dragon and is running through the woods, its clearly Merlin from the third season, his face is thinner and his hair is cropped really short. Just an observation.
The triple goddess mention is getting interesting now. In a show where the real world religion of Christianity is never mentioned or seen practiced, Paganism is for people like the druids and anyone in between, and the old religion is like Christianity for certain magic users (corrupt, power hungry, blood thirsty), the triple goddess is now apparently being established as this universe’s real world deity?? That she is actually like the gods of Olympus, on her cloud and weaving webs and plans for all people, mortal and magic. And now apparently she is angered that Arthur, a man who cannot alter his path except by a god, has broken from said path that cannot be broken except by a god, and so is judging him so he can continue on said path he shouldn’t be able to break from… except by a god… Do I have that correct?
Love that camera circling shot following Mordred before he blurs, it focuses on Merlin turning around to see Mordred, and then Mordred is back in focus when approaching Arthur. Really nice!
How come it looks like Arthur and co are about to ride off with a very large party, even with loads of non-talky knights, only for it to become just the main 4, and Mordred? Then its back to being a large party again when they are about to enter the cave. And in the cave it’s the main knight characters again! Its a game of ‘count the knights!’
I was actually kinda weirded out more that we could at some point see under the women’s hoods. I would have either liked the mystery only of ever seeing their mouths, OR seeing their faces clearly and each woman being of significant age. The triple goddess is a being who represents the three stages of womanhood; the maid, the mother and the crone. Each lady of the disir is a ‘mouthpiece’ and chosen at birth to be reared into this position, so if they can die, maybe make it so one replaces the other after they passed into the next age margin. The 25-50 year old lady for example would move to the ‘crone’ stage when the original ‘crone’ passes away and the maid moves into the middle ‘mother’ position and someone in the old religion selects the new maid, and so on. I’m trying to give logic to the Disir in headcanon here lol. All the women’s voices sound the same age, is all I’m saying.
Wish we got an ‘Emrys’ moment with Merlin and the Disir. This isn’t his religion so its not like he has to obey or not harm them. They attacked Arthur and then attacked him and now everyone is out of the cave. Merlin should have brought the Emrys (Since they know who he is but seem to view him more as an enemy), and really authority-wise teared into them.
Definitely must be odd for Gaius to hear now from the boy who once defied him TO save as many lives as possible who may or may not deserve it or logically survive without magical help, to now sit in front of him and be prepared to let a young man die on the off-chance he causes trouble, even when the same situation in years prior would have been a no brainer for Merlin #chooselife
Doesn’t it seem odd to Arthur that a wound caused by an enchanted weapon is actually prolonging someone’s life more than it would in normal circumstances, rather than killing him faster. Mordred survived the two day trip back, a day or two in Camelot, and another couple days it would take Arthur and Merlin to reach the Disir again. Doesn’t that tell him Mordred’s life is being hung onto deliberately as a bargaining tool? Is it just obvious to us as viewers? By the view I never got the vibe Arthur was subtly asking Gaius to use magic. Never heard it personally.
Merlin telling Arthur the world around them was vibrating was very interesting. It was almost like Merlin has stepped outside of himself, forgotten who he was talking to. Telling Arthur he can tell the place was sacred because he could FEEL it? Wouldn’t that sound a bit too close to admitting he had magic? No wonder Arthur gave him an odd look but its weird that nothing more came from that. I like that Merlin feels all this stuff because the forest around them doesn’t look any different to any other but I suppose that’s the point. However a human generally doesn’t have the ability to feel vibrations or have a ‘sense’ of greater things in the air, unless spiritually touched by the place… or sitting on the ground during a rock concert. Merlin used to talk like this. At the start he would say things because for him, it was normal to impulsively do or say certain things, he wouldn’t know that normal people couldn’t, he didn’t know differently. Since then he’s been so careful with what he’s said or done. “Everything here is full of life, every tree, every insect, every leaf.” This line right here was said so confidently, truthfully and absent-minded, it’s like Merlin couldn’t help it. But when Arthur says he couldn’t feel it, Merlin doesn’t panic but just stops talking and smiles. Very interesting.
That long time taken just on Merlin’s face is … pure beauty. You can see how much it’s eating away at Merlin to come to the conclusion he does, all for just his love for Arthur and what he holds dear. This is the ultimate moment we are shown Merlin has chosen his own fate, as well as Camelot’s. A future of keeping his secret hidden for good and selfishly a future where his friend is alive, sod everyone else living in hiding from the law. He has decided not to chance it with the possibility of Mordred’s life meaning Arthur’s eventual death, but then again, I for one am glad Merlin told Arthur to tell the Disir NO.
That drum beat after he says there can’t be magic? …Chills.
It is my belief that The Disir are in this case, like there are in real life, corrupt and power-influenced, or delusional followers as part of a larger conspiracy. That is how I see this episode. Many have got such strong opinions of this episode being the pinnacle point Merlin made his greatest ever mistake and after this point COULD have brought magic back to Camelot. I however believe Merlin makes the right decision. These women don’t ask Arthur to simply accept general magic and give it a fair go, they DEMAND Arthur to BOW to the Old Religion, essentially submitting or forcing Camelot over to new background leadership. This would have allowed bad magic into the kingdom legally. There’s magic and the triple goddess, there are peaceful worshippers of magic and the goddess, then there is the religion high priestesses started centuries ago to try and take over and abuse everything. I see the Disir as using their ‘connection to god’ to make others do what they don’t want to. Again, in real life, people have done bad things and said ‘its part of my religion’ or ‘god came and told me to’. It’s becoming a really heavy subject. Where I feel Merlin did the right thing in advising Arthur not to deal with the Disir, he still didn’t advise Arthur to at least meet half way and accept good practitioners of magic freedom in the city. That keeping the law to punish people using magic for evil but relaxing it for good magic users and druids would only make Camelot thrive more. Mordred was going to live either way, it was all a TRAP. Arthur’s simply now been given a ticking clock and its counting down to his final day which was always gonna happen, what he does in between now and then is up to him. Obviously though, it didn’t show us this as canon or that Merlin consciously made that decision with all this revelation in mind.
When Arthur and Merlin arrive in the courtyard and they spot Mordred, I was watching all the extras in the background, its super creepy! They are all stood still. Their king has only just come back from riding, same as every day, they don’t know the dire situation, yet they all stop working and stand still for that whole bit. It’s like in spooky movies where the protagonist realises too late they are not in the real world and you see the people behind them stop everything like they’ve glitched.
Love the end shot of Arthur lifting Mordred in the air, again there’s that paternal lovely relationship they have, even if Arthur never questions why Mordred is suddenly fine despite the Disir saying he would die. Arthur never shows caution for anything strange, even after all these years. Once again, Arthur is kept in the dark, not knowing what the big picture is, whilst Merlin suffers in silence carrying the weight all by himself of both his and Arthur’s destiny.
Sorry this got long again 😅
Next week: “Would you like to play a game?” Jigsaw Morgana!!
30th September 2021 @ 11:15 pm
“That drum beat after he says there can’t be magic? …Chills.”
Yes!!! Also, forgot to mention that in my original comment, but the music that plays during the confrontation with Osgar, and then with the Disir themselves – the creepy drums, bagpipes and a basso voice – is the theme that played when little Mordred was introduced waay back in s1. Which, I mean… interesting!
“It is my belief that The Disir are in this case, like there are in real life, corrupt and power-influenced, or delusional followers as part of a larger conspiracy. That is how I see this episode. Many have got such strong opinions of this episode being the pinnacle point Merlin made his greatest ever mistake and after this point COULD have brought magic back to Camelot. I however believe Merlin makes the right decision. These women don’t ask Arthur to simply accept general magic and give it a fair go, they DEMAND Arthur to BOW to the Old Religion, essentially submitting or forcing Camelot over to new background leadership”
While I do think Merlin made a wrong decision in this episode, I also sometimes get the vibes that, if the Disir was supposed to be an episode with a happy ending, Merlin would realize that there should be some third option, some other way – in simple terms, something in between the status quo with unmarked graves for sorcerers, and literal bowing to the triple goddess. I have no idea how this third path would have played out, but I think that would have been a truly right choice!
“Next week: “Would you like to play a game?” Jigsaw Morgana!!”
Oh god. Equally anticipating and dreading that one, cause I think it’s a really good episode, but also, probably the scariest one in all of Merlin!
1st October 2021 @ 10:24 pm
Ooh you’re right, I remember the drums in s1 at the end when Mordred revealed his name, interesting connection of music..
Absolutely, there was no really negotiating. Merlin didn’t ever open his mouth to the Disir, as either Merlin or Emrys. Nor did Arthur. Did there have to be a black or white answer? A ‘meet me half way’ deal. They just sort of let the disir make their own terms and then he had to say yes or no to them. Even if it was a trap, either way, “do or do not, there SHOULD be a try.”
Yes, even though the next coming 4 episodes are basically filler, the first and last of those cluster of eps are the best, and ‘the dark tower’ is so disturbing, no wonder it’s been done to death in fanfiction lol.
3rd October 2021 @ 10:52 am
There definitely should have been a middle ground between ‘we don’t negotiate with terrorists’ and ‘we’ll stand here and watch you shoot all of your hostages’ – what ever happened to ‘we can get you a truck and a million dollars, it’ll take 6 hours’, and then you’ve got 6 hours to figure out the sewer access and save the day!
Why is Merlin not figuring out the sewer access??? lol
2nd October 2021 @ 4:03 pm
-“I’m old enough to be wary of dismissing other people’s beliefs.” Go, Gaius! I’m almost liking you in this episode. You tell him! Like you said, whether they actually got their orders from a real deity, or they BELIEVE that they did, they are gonna act on it and real casualties and consequences will come from it, as they have done sending out Osgar. Arthur’s friend Ranulf died regardless of this being superstition or not. Beliefs don’t harm people. People acting on behalf of their beliefs do.-
I absolutely love this quote from Gaius! I wrote in my notes this is my favorite line from him in the whole show and shows true wisdom. I think it speaks to me because I live by this wisdom as well. You said it better than I can , “Beliefs don’t harm people. People acting on behalf of their beliefs do.”
-Wish we got an ‘Emrys’ moment with Merlin and the Disir. This isn’t his religion so its not like he has to obey or not harm them. They attacked Arthur and then attacked him and now everyone is out of the cave. Merlin should have brought the Emrys (Since they know who he is but seem to view him more as an enemy), and really authority-wise teared into them.-
I always expect a Emrys moment when Merlin is staying behind during the first scene with the Disir. I think that definitely could have given the episode more depth.
-I however believe Merlin makes the right decision. These women don’t ask Arthur to simply accept general magic and give it a fair go, they DEMAND Arthur to BOW to the Old Religion, essentially submitting or forcing Camelot over to new background leadership. This would have allowed bad magic into the kingdom legally. There’s magic and the triple goddess, there are peaceful worshippers of magic and the goddess, then there is the religion high priestesses started centuries ago to try and take over and abuse everything. I see the Disir as using their ‘connection to god’ to make others do what they don’t want to.-
It breaks my heart that Merlin tells Arthur to say no, but I do agree with you that it is the right decision because of the reason you said above. My issue is that Merlin says “There can be no place for MAGIC in Camelot.” Is magic the same as the old religion? To me, no….. but is that the case to Arthur? Shouldn’t be the case to Merlin. He practices magic, but has never been a follower of the Old Religion. I know Merlin is somewhat an anomaly, but surely he can’t be the only one ever with magic without the Old Religion? I mean by now, I consider the Old religion more bad than good. Maybe Emrys is suppose to be the new prophet for a new magic religion that is good? Hell! I don’t know… When I start thinking of all this magic vs old religion stuff, my brain hurts and I can’t make sense of it. For the millionth time, I wish they had drawn a distinction between sorcery/magic/old religion.
Love your thoughts on Arthur treating Mordred as a son, but it is a little weird visually for me since they look basically the same age. I see it more as Arthur is the big brother to Mordred.
4th October 2021 @ 5:55 pm
Ikr! In the show, it’s like the writers get themselves confused at times between magic and the old religion, same as they get themselves confused about destiny and prophecy. Arthur is born of ‘magic’, though VIA the Old Religion. Merlin is magic, born via woman and magical man. I don’t even think Balinor is of the OR, he and dragons are ancient ‘magic’ beings, however some if they wanted to could join the OR, like joining or converting religion.
Merlin is told by the dragon they are both the same, which they are, but maybe the dragon is a self proclaimed member of the OR, he seems to preach like a priest at times about how the OR is everything, or as old as the earth, you cannot get rid of it. Either he’s telling the truth, and as long as magic’s been discovered, the OR has been studying and worshipping it. Or the writers messed up and he meant ‘magic’ is everything. Or he is reciting the teachings as if its scripture he was brought up on as a young dragon. He doesn’t want Morgana in charge, but he was really mad when Merlin killed Nimueh. Dragon must have really wanted Nimueh to remain part of the OR.
Like you say, it makes sense Arthur wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. But Merlin, whether listening to dragons and old men alone, or going off to do some research on his own (which he should have done!) he should by now know the difference so he knows who’s lying to him. His words to Arthur should have been “There can be no place for the OLD RELIGION in Camelot. Look what that’s like, having people like Morgana a part of it. But druids and good people who just practice earth magic to improve life, can be accepted.” He was both right and wrong.
You’re right, this hurts the brain 😖
5th October 2021 @ 2:26 am
It’s like I have an never ending brain freeze when I think about it all! It should not be this hard to figure out! Come on, show!! Give me examples of people using magic but not of the OR! Give me more examples of “good” magic, because as of right now I can only think of Merlin and his dad….
5th October 2021 @ 2:58 pm
I guess there is also that time the druids saved Leon…
5th October 2021 @ 2:10 pm
On the Emrys moment, was definitely thinking the same thing. What I would have loved for this episode (many SPOILERS ahead) is the Disir telling Arthur about magic/ old religion/ that mess and how it’s been treated in the kingdom, Arthur gets defensive in the usual way but THEN the Disir mention that actually his kingdom would not still be standing without magic due to Emrys. Then I can imagine the rest of the season following Arthur accepting and legalising magic because of Merlin, though the Merlin element unknown to him, which would actually fulfil the Golden Age plot line instead of chucking it out the window for the Drama. You can definitely still have Merlin refusing to share his secret (fear of repercussions for his lies) and the tragedy of it all but at least the very thing that has been the promise since around episode one could actually become a thing. Obviously there’s plot holes in this but I think you could still have Merlin and his tragic path without this specific black and white answer and without achieving this part of the destiny (which is, as we all know from the very clear discussions of destiny and fate, set in stone).
5th October 2021 @ 3:09 pm
(SPOILERS)
Also, how much more painful would it be if we accepted magic, the world became a better place, Arthur (with Merlin’s help, love, and guidance) was the one who made it happen, and yet, Destiny cannot be changed. Mordred was always going to be Arthur’s downfall, one way or another. And the rest of the season still plays out the way it’s going to… but now AFTER the lands of Albion have been united. Which is so much more of a kick in the teeth while simultaneously assuring Arthur’s legacy that will be spoken of for 100s of years to come… 🤷🏼♂️
7th October 2021 @ 3:36 pm
It makes sense. Not everything has to come down to whether or not magic is ever legalised in Camelot. Magic could still have its place in the kingdom, there could still be a few year of peace and prosperity, but how and when Arthur dies is still prophecised, because something separate causes Mordred to become his killer. No one specified Arthur would die because he’s continue to p*** off the magic community…
30th September 2021 @ 7:11 pm
I wrote in my notes before listening to you, “this is a really good episode and I fucking hate it, it’s so painful.” I realised after listening that by “good” I mean “coherent and well-structured,” which is not quite the praise I originally thought I was bestowing. Just because it’s better structured than many other episodes, and merely being able to follow the plot is kind of a low bar for an episode of my favourite TV show! I shall merely remark that I agree with you on a lot, especially regarding Merlin’s motivations, and try to avoid reiterating what has already been said.
Everyone quotes “he grew up” as the saddest line but I found “he learnt the meaning of duty” much much sadder. It really marks his descent into delusion and the betrayal of his own principles in service of some power he simultaneously resents and believes himself to be beholden to. I made myself even sadder thinking about this line in light of a headcanon I developed after pondering your comments about the show being all for Merlin, lines being said for his benefit and no one else’s. I don’t claim this to be canon or what the writers intended, it’s merely personal headcanon, but… The whole situation IS for Merlin, or it becomes that way. Perhaps at first the Disir really do want to convince Arthur to change his views on magic, but as they have access to knowledge of destiny it’s entirely possible that they knew that was hopeless anyway, or that there was a slim chance.* Thus, the Disir go from talking to Arthur but knowing (and bearing in mind) that Merlin is there and listening to talking to Merlin via Arthur – the challenge isn’t for Arthur to accept magic, because Osgar’s words presented his first chance at that and the first direct encounter with the Disir were his second chance, but rather for Merlin to convince Arthur. The Disir bring up the fate of Camelot etc not to persuade Arthur (as Arthur only came to apologise in the hope of saving one man, and beyond a vague “I should respect others’ beliefs even if I think they’re ridiculous” he doesn’t really understand what he did wrong), but to persuade Merlin to think of all of Camelot (ALL of Camelot’s people, including magic users) rather than merely the life of one man whom Merlin considers a risk. They bring up Arthur’s death because that is something that feels threatening to Merlin, threatening enough that Merlin will surely risk his own safety to convince Arthur to accept magic… except he doesn’t, he sacrifices all of his chances at happiness and safety within Camelot for what he had already been convinced was the greater good but more pertinently FOR ARTHUR. This is coming out a little garbled but basically it was never about what Arthur would decide, it was about what Merlin would decide, and he had already been pushed so far down his current path that the Disir’s gamble didn’t pay off, and Merlin made the wrong choice. Again, just a headcanon, of course!
*if there are many paths, then maybe only one leads to Arthur actually accepting magic but there are fifteen that lead to him not doing so, or whatever – they give him the chance but it’s not the one they expect to work.
30th September 2021 @ 10:51 pm
I’m just here to say that your headcanon makes so much sense and it almost feels textual, especially in the last scene of the episode where Merlin realizes how the whole test worked.
2nd October 2021 @ 4:26 pm
-This is coming out a little garbled but basically it was never about what Arthur would decide, it was about what Merlin would decide, and he had already been pushed so far down his current path that the Disir’s gamble didn’t pay off, and Merlin made the wrong choice.-
I think you are absolutely right that the disir did this to test Merlin and not Arthur. After all, Arthur is basically a pawn of Merlin’s. I wish that wasn’t so and that the writers would have taken more care in developing Arthur’s character, but here we are. Also this shows that perfectly: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c3/e2/05/c3e2056200644900f729d3415e179dea.jpg
Like I said earlier to someone’s comment…. Not sure if it was the wrong choice since we wouldn’t want a possibly corrupt and angry religion deity to take over Camelot. All this time I had been viewing Colin’s beautiful performance as conflict between having magic be accepted in Camelot vs having Arthur safe and sound, but maybe it was deeper than that. Perhaps he was also conflicted about how he HAS to tell Arthur to deny the Disir in order to keep Camelot “safe” from religion tyranny and then sealing his fate in losing Arthur…his platonic soulmate? Gosh…. my brain is feeling so muddled in trying to figure out what is actually going on in this episode!
3rd October 2021 @ 11:04 am
I completely agree on the ‘meaning of duty’ being much more powerful than the ‘grew up’ line. I know I said I remembered the first part, but not the second. But honestly, I don’t think I remembered the first but so much as I automatically filled it in as a response to Gaius’ ‘what happened to him?’ question, because it is the most obvious response. It works. It’s painful. It hits you in the feels. It’s honest. It’s true. And it’s relatable. I actually said the words out loud at the same time merlin did. And not because I remembered them, but because those words logically go there.
The duty line is unexpected, hence it brings gut punch. But it’s also so much more layered and interesting. It makes me want to rewatch the whole show with the theme of ’duty’ at the front of my mind…
30th September 2021 @ 5:05 pm
Oh, one more thing I forgot: the scene in the beginning when Gaius and Merlin talk about Mordred, Gaius says “seeing is not the same as knowing”. I actually really like this line, because it speaks to some truth about Merlin I think. One of the main problems of Merlin is that he sees much (too much) and it overwhelms him, but he doesn’t actually have wisdom. His wisdom, most often perceived by Arthur (in all those scenes “if I didn’t know you, I would have thought you’re actually wise”), comes from the fact that Merlin knows prophecies, of which Arthur isn’t aware. But it ISN’T actual wisdom! Merlin sometimes shows a bit of an arrogance! And I mean, it’s no wonder when everyone tells you you’re basically a prophecised superhero. And you don’t get any guidance as to how to actually get there.
1st October 2021 @ 8:37 pm
Oh man you’re totally right about this. I think Merlin’s real “wise” moments for me come from his youthful, naive-seeming choices such as saving Mordred despite the prophecy or putting his life on the line for Gwen. I seem to remember a few of the moments Arthur sees as wise involving “do what you believe to be right,” which I don’t think is NOT wise but it’s also pretty obvious, far less perceptive than “it’s worth it to do what’s right even when it’s dangerous” or putting innocent human life over prophecy… And a lot of his more recent “wise” moments are just “Arthur you’re gonna be really great one day” which just isn’t even related to the concept of wisdom. BUT it fits, because so far whenever Merlin needs guidance on a big issue, issues he can’t go to Gwen with for example because it involves magic, he goes to Gaius (whose advice is based on his experiences and his knowledge in an learned sense) or Kilgarrah, whose advice is based on literal knowledge of the future. Merlin thinks being wise means knowing stuff, which it really doesn’t. The more he sees, the less he understands. At risk of sounding like William Blake, he was wiser when he came from a younger, less experienced perspective.
“The child naively believes that everything should be fair and everyone should be honest, that only good should prevail, that everybody should have what they want and there should be no pain or sadness. The child believes the world should be perfect and is outraged to discover it is not. And the child is right.” – Rabbi Tzvi Freeman https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/66978/jewish/Learning-the-Child.htm
1st October 2021 @ 10:06 pm
Yes, that’s totally what I wanted to say and you expressed it so well! It’s no wonder Merlin has the idea of “wisdom” as “knowledge” when Kilgarrah himself basically taught him that. I totally think that young Merlin had some kind of instinctual wisdom. Also, I think the wisest character on BBCM might actually be Gwen. When they allow her to speak, that is.
Also, thank you for the quote, it’s really powerful.
1st October 2021 @ 10:39 pm
It’s interesting watching Merlin throughout the series, seeing how actually in the first season, his naivety and fresh look on right and wrong made him wiser and more rebellious to being told what to do, coming from outside the destiny at first, even his magic was stronger and just so raw, he was desperate to use it and could so without thinking. Now he barely uses his magic, it’s become so controlled, it’s like he’s becoming less like the most powerful warlock ever. And he has been told the story over and over now, the words have lost meaning and he’s no longer the fresh faced outsider looking in. He’s turned into a slave of the people who believe in the prophecies because it’s becoming too exhausting to resist, especially after all the horrible things he’s been through.
30th September 2021 @ 3:54 pm
Please don’t eat me, this comment will be long 😉
So, upon rewatching this episode, I realized that I liked the general theme more than the particular execution. As you said, this episode harks back to such tragic moments as The Sins of the Father (and maybe also The Fires of Idirsholas) – two episodes which I love the most in the whole of Merlin – but doesn’t really get there quite so smoothly. I actually love (in my own perverse way) the idea that Merlin’s character (regression) arc has gone so downhill that he’s ready to choose Mordred’s death over the fate of the whole magical community. As a concept, I think it’s brutally poetic: to have him go from choosing between magic and love for Arthur (in The Sins of the Father) and magic and hate for Mordred (though still, ultimately, because of the love for Arthur, but this time, a very corrupted kind of love). But we should have landed there more neatly.
I think what irks me the most in this episode is the establishment of Arthur’s and his knights’ authority as a rather ruthless one. Gwaine stabs a man who just wants to be taken to the king. Percival tramples a relic ON PURPOSE. Sorcerers aren’t permitted marked graves. This all screams oppressive state! As you said, the parallel between police brutality and this is all too striking. It could have been remedied very easily. I still can’t understand why the knights can’t trample the relics purely by accident (after all, there are lots of them and they’re hanging in a dark cave), and still offend the Disir that way.
Okay, since I think you pointed out most of the problems in other parts of this episode, I’m just going to note 2 beautiful scenes before we get to the heart of things:
1. The scene between Merlin and Mordred is beautiful (even though I still don’t understand the unmarked graves issue, it feels like the most humiliating kind of persecution). I think it was in the DVD commentary that they said that Colin and Alex at least partly improvised this scene because they felt the characters needed a sense of kinship? If so, kudos to them!
2. The “he grew up” tears me apart, especially because it directly parallels the scene where Morgana tells Arthur that she grew up in Arthur’s Bane. Merlin and Morgana are becoming mirror images of each other and I love it/it breaks me.
Okay. Now to THE BIG THING.
Let’s start with the “sacred place” dialogue. Why does this scene come straight before the fateful “there can be no magic in Camelot” scene? This could have happened on many occasions, after all, Merlin and Arthur have passed many magical / sacred places in the past. I think it’s painfully ironic that this, right here, is the moment when Merlin realizes Arthur would never fully understand him. I think that in the past, Merlin might have hoped that one day, he’ll tell Arthur about his magic, then hopefully Arthur will accept him and then, they’ll reach some upper level of understanding and acceptance. And of course, if Arthur knew about the magic and accepted it, Merlin’s life would have become much better, no doubt about that. BUT ARTHUR WOULD NEVER UNDERSTAND. He’ll never be able to feel the world vibrating. He’ll never comprehend the way in which Merlin sees the world. And I think, here Merlin realizes it, and perhaps it’s also that, as well as his obvious Mordred-related paranoia, pushes him into the wrong decision. The tragedy of this is, of course, that Merlin noticed a truth, but reacted wrongly. Arthur would never understand, but that’s okay. He doesn’t have to perceive the world in the same way as Merlin does in order to love him and be his closest friend. That’s a rule even if you don’t have magic or special abilities: other people would never truly understand you, that’s life. Some will understand you better than others, and it’s wonderful. But even they can’t see the world through your eyes 100%. This is kinda the tragedy of human existence. But in order to be at least a bit happy, we need to accept that and learn to be open to each other’s experiences. We might never truly understand, but we can listen. And Merlin didn’t realize that.
Colin’s performance. God. I don’t think I have actual words. I’ve NEVER seen an actor emote so masterfully. Never. How does he even do that??
Okay, now more coherently. THE SOUNDTRACK. Remember my whole soundtrack rants which started way back in season 3? THIS scene is a culmination of it. The Round Table/destiny theme stems from Freya’s theme which has been used in the past to indicate a benevolent magic user (like, say, Freya, or Gilli). In the OG Round Table Scene, it appears in almost the same form as it does in the Disir, but it doesn’t get cut. This soundtrack symbolizes not just the golden age of Albion, but a golden age with the possibility of magic being there. It all gets cut here, and the hope dies. Brutally, even the music reminds us that Merlin not only ended the hope for a fully golden era, but threw the magical people under the bus in the process. Mild spoiler: this soundtrack will come back only once in the entire season, in The Kindness of Strangers. We’ll see how the last echoes of what could have been play out there.
One final note on the final scene: Gaius and Merlin watching the courtyard through the window at the end, so that their faces are seen through the stained glass – this shot has been established as the “villain lurking” shot. Morgana’s been lurking like that all of s3. It’s very interesting that it’s now the two of them that took this role! Because, effectively, they ARE the plotters. And however much we empathize with Merlin who’s been given bad advice etc., he’s the actual villain of this episode. From the very first watching of this episode, I was always sure that we’re never supposed to be thinking that Merlin does the right thing, that his suspicion of Mordred is cool. We were supposed to empathize with him, yes, but not to think he acts right.
In general, if I was to draw Merlin’s character arc, it would be slowly going downhill, and the Disir would be its lowest point. Our hero has fallen, and as much as it’s painful, it’s the story that this show has established from the very beginning where it thrust an impossibly heavy burden of destiny on a young country boy’s shoulders.
And on that cheerful note, see you next week 😀
30th September 2021 @ 7:51 pm
“It could have been remedied very easily. I still can’t understand why the knights can’t trample the relics purely by accident (after all, there are lots of them and they’re hanging in a dark cave), and still offend the Disir that way.”
Yes yes yes – there’s literally a moment in at least one version of an Arthurian myth (and I can’t for the life of me remember where now)* where a character goes to kill a snake or something and as they draw their sword the person they were negotiating with thinks they’re preparing an attack and kills them. Why couldn’t the Disir move in a way that appeared to threaten Arthur and Gwaine attack thinking he was protecting Arthur from harm, rather than merely getting angry that they were rude to him? There’s precedent in the myths for that kind of understanding.
Then again, I suppose part of the point is that they’re meant to be disrespectful and rude – so that Arthur has something to apologise for. BUT he was already being judged, so why not cut all that out and just have Arthur go apologise for not taking them seriously and ask what he has done wrong to earn the Disir’s judgment and how to make amends for THAT?
*(I found it: “The Adder is said to have caused the start of the Battle of Camlan, the battle in which King Arthur was killed (in 537 AD). As the armies of King Arthur and Mordred (Arthur’s illegitimate son) faced each other an Adder emerged suddenly. One of Arthur’s men drew his sword to kill the animal, but Mordred believed this to be a sign of attack, prompting the battle to begin.” http://adder.narrs.org.uk/folklore.php)
“this, right here, is the moment when Merlin realizes Arthur would never fully understand him.”
100%. I have no idea if your interpretation was the original intention but I definitely think it holds water and also it makes me very sad. It’s like Merlin is trying to be the “good warlock” the way I used to try to be “the good trans person” – if they just understand me, if I can just be good and educate them and prove that I’m not all the bad things they think people like me must be, then they’ll come around and be accepting! It doesn’t work, aside from keeping you personally safe to some extent (which in the real world is course totally fine and you should protect yourself before being an activist!) – Merlin needs to actively convince/show Arthur that his treatment of magic users is unethical, rather than expect magic-positivity to just, idk, pass over to Arthur via osmosis if the two of them spend enough time together! But anyway, Arthur’s expression after Merlin asks “don’t you [feel it]?” isn’t even negative – he’s confused, but it’s not judgemental or suspicious. And if Merlin weren’t so paranoid he might have realised that non-judgmental confusion is precisely where the first seeds of acceptance can be sown.
“Remember my whole soundtrack rants which started way back in season 3? THIS scene is a culmination of it. The Round Table/destiny theme stems from Freya’s theme which has been used in the past to indicate a benevolent magic user (like, say, Freya, or Gilli). In the OG Round Table Scene, it appears in almost the same form as it does in the Disir, but it doesn’t get cut. This soundtrack symbolizes not just the golden age of Albion, but a golden age with the possibility of magic being there. It all gets cut here, and the hope dies. Brutally, even the music reminds us that Merlin not only ended the hope for a fully golden era, but threw the magical people under the bus in the process.”
Ow ow ow ow how dare you?! 😛
1st October 2021 @ 10:15 pm
Thank you for the actual Arthurian reference! I wasn’t aware of that, though the trope of a tragic misunderstanding sounds very mythic to me (plenty of that in Greek and Norse myths). Now I’m really regretful that they didn’t go for it, as it could have added an additional layer of tragedy to the story.
As to the understanding and magic – you’re totally right, Merlin’s existence now is basically just trying to be the “good warlock” to Arthur. Also, I think it’s super interesting that in this scene, Merlin is actually very close to ACCIDENTALLY revealing his magic because it just seems so obvious to him that you feel the world vibrating when you’re close to a sacred place. When I first saw this scene, it spoke to my autism so much, because I had many moments in my life of “ooh, so not everyone hears this sound so loud as I do, I had no idea” etc. So it seems that Merlin here actually realizes for the first time that Arthur is further away from him in terms of his mindset that he thought he was. If he wasn’t paranoid/depressed, Merlin could have realized that this doesn’t prevent Arthur from becoming open and understanding to magic (just as you don’t have to experience/completely understand gender dysphoria in order to be a trans ally). But instead, it seems he just gave up. “If he can’t understand me anyway, then it’s not even worth trying”. Oh Merlin 🙁
3rd October 2021 @ 9:58 am
I assume this was a (hilarious!!) auto correct and was meant to say ‘don’t hate me’, but just to reassure you, just in case…
We promise not to eat you!!! <3
3rd October 2021 @ 6:34 pm
It actually wasn’t, haha 😀 I realized too late that I must have made a literal translation from Polish, there’s an expression of “don’t eat me” which roughly means “don’t hate me”/ “don’t yell at me”, only now realizing it doesn’t work like that in English xD