Episode IV.VIII – Lamia
We discuss Episode 8 of Season 4 of Merlin, Lamia.
NOT a favourite, it is safe to say.
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11th November 2021 @ 2:51 pm
In regards to Agravaine covering the tracks, I had assumed it was because it was a convenient way of finally getting rid of Merlin, that pesky servant. Preventing Arthur from finding and helping them would decrease the chance of Merlin’s group surviving.
26th May 2021 @ 10:25 pm
First of all, funnel cakes are amazing.
As for this episode, I consider this one of the worst if not the worst episode in the entire Merlin series. With the exception of Gaius handing Merlin his bag and saying that Merlin can handle it, it’s a complete wipeout for me. Screechy temptress, bullying knights, Merlin being treated like dirt. No thanks. I’m trying to wipe it from my memory. At least Gwen was smart in this one. But not enough to save it.
27th May 2021 @ 9:31 am
for 90% of people who did not like this episode, the main take away from it does seem to have been that yes, funnel cakes are indeed amazing! hahaha
the second there’s any way to get my hands on one, I will do my best to eat one!!! đ
M Xx
20th April 2021 @ 4:29 am
So, an interesting fact is that Lamia is a Greek monster who was cursed by Hera because Zeus had an affair with her. And then she became a half snake half woman baby/child eating monster. I’m not totally sure where the Merlin writers got the idea for her to be a young girl who feeds off people by kissing them/ having physical contact. It’s a pretty far leap from a baby eater to a life force sucking creature.
Anyways, I was inspired by the fact that other people were doing sonnets and stuff, so I thought I’d try my hand at a poem.
A married couple in a small village hear a scream, a sound
When John goes out to look, thereâs a body to be found
Mary goes to Camelot swift and quick, fear in her voice so thick
She finds Guinevere there, who pulls up a chair
They see the king of Camelot, who unlike his father, is not an old snot
Arthur says to send a healer, Gaius will come with you
But thereâs been cases of sweating sickness, so Merlin will have to do
The Knights, Gwen, and Merlin visit the small town
With a couple more struck down, it seems the sickness is going all around
Merlin tries to heal with magic, but he’s certain he’s failed, how tragic
They go to ride back to Camelot, but instead find a girl who’s pretty hot
She doesnât like Merlin, she’s terrified of him, but she likes Percival, probably his beefy arms
With him, she wonât come to any harm
Back at home, Arthurâs starting to freak out
âThey should have been back by nowâ he shouts
Off he goes, with knights, Agravaine, and Gaius in tow
Back at the camp, the Knights and Merlin have a small row
Eastwards is the way they’ll go
Leon is rude to Merlin; he thinks for a servant he’s got too much attitude
Leon goes to give Lamia water and the knights get into a fight
We check in on Arthur, he found some slavers, but itâs not that important
We’ll talk about the man they found later
They carry onto the village, where they find out the party left yesterday morn
But luckily for them, Gwen left a trail of fabric torn
Merlin and Gwen start to suspect Lamia, maybe their first assumptions werenât correct
In the village, Gaius explains the plot, thereâs now peril where we thought nought
Lamia’s apparently a snake lady, which seems a bit crazy
Elyan is her first victim of the knights, once she kisses him, heâs out like a light
They continue eastward, into Lamiaâs castle
But with Elyan unconscious, itâs a bit of a hassle
Arthur is tracking them and Agravaine acts without motive
He covers up some tracks for no good reason, do we ever find out why?
No, we don’t, not even at the end of the season
The knights have been led by Lamia to her home of skulls
And now the danger never lulls
One by one, the knights disappear, each one hearing the sound of Lamiaâs tears
Merlin and Gwen talk about why they weren’t affected
And we find that homosexuality is what the writers neglected
Merlin isnât gay and neither are women
Of course, thatâs why Gwenâs not afflicted, and Merlin must be straight
Otherwise on this show the homophobes would hate
Lamia kisses Percival and Leon sees, apparently Lamiaâs spell is broken with ease
Merlin tries to battle Lamia, but he canât handle it
Gwen tries to help, stabbing with a sword
But Arthur saves the day, women being able to save themselves is ignored
The episode ends with Arthur and Gwen in a kiss
But not before the sick are saved and Arthurs blatant misogyny, which you couldnât even try to miss
21st April 2021 @ 12:40 am
Bravo! I always admire people who can write poetry!
21st April 2021 @ 2:41 pm
look at you verse-i-fying the entire episode! đ đ
M Xx
19th April 2021 @ 5:04 am
I often wondered why this episode was included, and R&M just furthered my conviction. My head cannon is that the show had a midlife crisis about the name âThe Adventures ofâŚâ, and decided it needed more non-sequitur episodes to back up the title. Haha. If they wanted to tie this back to the overall plot, it would have been interesting to see Lamia being the result of another of Morganaâs plots.
On the bright side, I LOVED that we got to see Merlinâs apprentice physician role highlighted. As a medical student, I felt so much empathy and sympathy for Merlin when Gauis told Merlin that he will go to the village on his own. That first thrust to independence is anxiety-inducing, indeed! The responsibility of othersâ health in combination with oneâs lack of confidence lead to all sorts of worry about what one will find and if one can handle it. But Gaius sings Merlinâs praise and even gives him his medicine bag. For once, Gaius is not the worst, and I appreciate how much he believes in and supports Merlin here.
Speaking of young healthcare provider anxiety, I can see why Merlin was off his game the first time he met Lamia. He just came from his first solo medical assignment where he could not diagnose the issue, and was clearly bamboozled by it. Thus, he was likely still in that headspace (and not thinking clearly medically as he has in other first aid situations), so he missed Lamiaâs wounds and approached her with subpar bedside manner. While he needs to learn not to let previous patients impact subsequent encounters, his inexperience clearly won this time. Or at least this is what I interpreted, since we had no indication that he picked up on Lamiaâs magicâŚ
In the village, I laughed so hard at Gwaineâs line, âSir Gwaine was slain with a fishing rod… thatâs the stuff of legends, eh?â. A hop and a skip from the fourth wall with that one!
When I rewatched this episode, at first I thought that Agravaine wasnât annoying me for once. I was wrong. As soon as Arthur spelled out for us that Gwen was with the missing group, Agravaine suddenly started sabotaging the search party. While all the motivation stuff with Morgana is confusing (as we have hashed out previously), at least Agravaine messing stuff up once he and we make the connection has a bit of internal consistency? Oh, this mission is to find the likely future queen whom Morgana despises because of visions? Alright, then. Letâs cover tracks and make her harder to find. I can at least buy into that motivation, even though overall it still makes no sense.
I totally second that the fake-out of Gwen learning about Merlinâs magic was frustrating. This couldâve been a great moment for her to learn. Then the episode wouldnât feel like such a waste.
I also agree that it doesnât make sense for Arthurâs blow to be the fatal one. Must Lamia be impaled three times? I mean, maybe, but that wasnât contextual. For a second, I thought that maybe Arthur had Excalibur, which could have explained why his stab worked and the others didnât; but, at this point Excalibur is firmly planted in a boulder. Oy vey. At least the episode is over! On to Lancelot du Lac!
19th April 2021 @ 11:42 am
Hah! Ruth and i literally had a conversation a couple of weeks ago about the fact that NO ONE refers to it as âThe Adventures ofâŚâ Merlin, insteadm to differentiate it from the 7000 other Arthurian legends, people talk about BBC Merlin. It’s insane to remember that it the show is actually called âThe Adventures of Merlin” so yeah, maybe you’re right, maybe the show did suddently remember that, also lol
–But Gaius sings Merlinâs praise and even gives him his medicine bag. For once, Gaius is not the worst, and I appreciate how much he believes in and supports Merlin here.–
100%!!! And I hope you are getting that same level of mentoring and confidence from people in your life, WITHOUT the gaslighting and high percentage of people being the worst, otherwise đ
–Speaking of young healthcare provider anxiety, I can see why Merlin was off his game the first time he met Lamia. He just came from his first solo medical assignment where he could not diagnose the issue, and was clearly bamboozled by it. Thus, he was likely still in that headspace (and not thinking clearly medically as he has in other first aid situations), so he missed Lamiaâs wounds and approached her with subpar bedside manner. —
I can totally roll with that as a much better version of my ‘he forgot he was the medic’ but actually, he had been the medic, and he couldn’t fix the problem and it threw him for a loop. Which would also justify the over eagerness – when he notices the wound (way too late compared to his usual quickness in these things!) – with which he approaches her, leading to the poor bedside manner. I like it!!
— Oh, this mission is to find the likely future queen whom Morgana despises because of visions? Alright, then. Letâs cover tracks and make her harder to find. I can at least buy into that motivation, even though overall it still makes no sense.–
also as far as general ‘destabilisation’ and ‘mischief making’ goes, making it more likely rather than less that at least some of Arthur’s nearest and dearest end up dead or seriously wounded, the longer they take to reach them… it’s good enough if you accept Agri’s motivation to literally be about as thought out as the goblin’s… lol
–I totally second that the fake-out of Gwen learning about Merlinâs magic was frustrating. This couldâve been a great moment for her to learn. Then the episode wouldnât feel like such a waste.–
I do absolutely understand why Gwen cannot learn about it. the show has written itself into a corner and I do genuinly believe at this point Gwaine is the only person in Camelot who can learn about Merlin’s magic, without Arthur (etc.) finding out at the same time, because otherwise you have more and more people who know about Merlin’s magic and it becomes more problematic by the person about why everyone is lying to Arthur, as that’s already most of his life, anyway… poor puppy.
— For a second, I thought that maybe Arthur had Excalibur, which could have explained why his stab worked and the others didnât; but, at this point Excalibur is firmly planted in a boulder. —
I went through the exact same thought process!! Oh well okay, he’s got the magic sword I guess, so he keeps killing stuff that no one else can kill, but without knowing about it… but no, no he doesn’t. ARGH!
M Xx
18th April 2021 @ 10:35 pm
My biggest issue with this episode is that I donât know what they want the point to be? Do they try to teach a lesson? Do they want it to be a character episode for Merlin? Do they just want the knights to be rude and lovestruck/horny? I donât know and I donât like any part of it.
Nothing makes sense and all my thoughts about this episode are such a mess because of it. Weâll see if I can manage to get some structure into this đ
Lamia might be a metaphor for a manipulative/abusive relationship. Thatâs what I ended up with being the most consistent metaphor for her story. She charms men with innocence and beauty, gaining full control over them almost immediately. Then she controls their behaviour and thoughts and uses that to isolate them from anyone who thinks differently and might threaten her power. She can turn a honourable man into a completely different person, making him rude and aggressive towards others. She kisses him and once that step is made, she turns into the monster she truly is. She kills them with her acted affection and she just takes her pleasure (of killing/hurting?) from them. From a beautiful innocent looking girl she turns into a dangerous and ugly monster and throws them away, having made them utterly incapable to help themselves, leaving them to suffer and die.
What does this episode want to tell us with this? Cute women alone in the forest canât be trusted? Women can use her charm against men? Men charmed by a women change and turn to be completely different and rude? It definitely doesnât look good, especially considering the show barely having anything else on the topic of romance and sexuality to compare it to.
Because Merlin isnât able to actually do anything against the illness Iâm left with the feeling that Merlin really isnât that great of a physician and Iâm not sure how true that is. But if it is, wouldnât it have been a lot more logical for Gaius to go? Merlin couldâve stayed in Camelot and treat the illness heâs already familiar with and has been treating for a while with Gaius. That way you could make sure everyone receives the necessary treatment. But for plot reasons they obviously couldnât think of that.
The creators must have known that loads of people think magic is used as a metaphor for queerness at this point. So why are they making a curse that only charms men, except for Merlin, when it isnât what they were going for.
I literally thought theyâd make it explicit that Merlin isnât affected because heâs gay/asexual until they implied it was magic.
Gwen probably also thinks heâs gay at that point. Merlinâs explanations donât make any sense and it really is the only obvious conclusion from this.
At first I liked the show for doing the whole metaphor thing, but then I started thinking about it and it became hurtful quite quickly. You could have made him actually gay. But that would have resulted in a lot more issues which the show would need to deal with and Iâm afraid they wouldnât have done well. And then the creators said magic wasnât supposed to be a metaphor for anything (which I at this point think they said because they didnât want to be called homophobic…) And then we add the fact that thereâs no actual canon queerness in the show… itâs all quite uncomfortable.
For some reason the episode wanted the knights to be rude to Merlin. However, I donât think that works as well as it should in the context of the rest of the season. We had some really uncomfortable interactions with the knights and Merlin (stew…) and it doesnât make the things seem quite as outrageous as they should. Itâs not too different to what weâve seen them like with Merlin before which just makes me really uncomfortable.
We finally get an episode with all the knights in it and give them loads of lines and instead of giving them character moments we make them enchanted/cursed assholes. There was an unbelievable lack of screen-time for the knights already and the show didnât know what to do with that many talking parts. Now they managed to get all those characters in one episode in a way that works, but the characters arenât themselves so it doesnât give us anything useful. Itâs just frustrating.
You guys seem to think that Merlin realises something weird is going on when he starts talking about it, which I agree would be awfully late, but I think he realises from the moment Percy snaps at him the first time, but he doesnât want to say anything about it because wants to de escalate the situation. He then tries to figure out how far Lamiaâs repulsion against him goes, fully realising something weird is going on and itâs not because sheâs traumatised. I think the way Merlin looks at the others when being overly rude to him makes it clear he notices that they arenât themselves.
The only part I like about this episode is Gwen and Merlin together. I adore their friendship and I love to watch them team up in this episode. Their dynamic is glorious!
19th April 2021 @ 11:58 am
–My biggest issue with this episode is that I donât know what they want the point to be? —
actually Kate made an interesting point above in regards to this episode being a return to the ‘adventure’ part of ‘The Adventures of Merlin’ and it is true that we have not had that in a while, and it’s also something that I talk about in this week’s podcast in regards to the fact that we haven’t had one off villains the way we had on a weekly basis back in S1 and a lot of S2. everything is now Morgana, Agraivain, and THE PLOT. so yeah, I find that idea quite believable. Not a good reason, don’t get me wrong, but believable. Just wanting some rollicking adventures before we dive into the Gwen-ness of the end of the season.
–What does this episode want to tell us with this? Cute women alone in the forest canât be trusted? Women can use her charm against men? Men charmed by a women change and turn to be completely different and rude? It definitely doesnât look good, especially considering the show barely having anything else on the topic of romance and sexuality to compare it to.–
which is the bottom line problem of this episode, isn’t it? Sort of whichever way you turn it, and whichever way you interpret it, it doesn’t look good. Honestly, the one good thing that has come from it (much like with the Goblin episode) is the discussions happening here on the topic of stereotypes and tropes and toxis representation in media, and looking at this story from all different angles and trying to pin down and disect it. You may say ‘the episode isn’t worth it’ but as far as text analysis goes, I have loved reading through everyone’s thoughts on the topic here, and considering different views and adjustments to my own thoughts and use of language as a response to it.
–But if it is, wouldnât it have been a lot more logical for Gaius to go? Merlin couldâve stayed in Camelot and treat the illness heâs already familiar with and has been treating for a while with Gaius. That way you could make sure everyone receives the necessary treatment. But for plot reasons they obviously couldnât think of that.–
I literally had to stop myself from saying this exact same thing on the podcast because yes, as you immediately concluded, they can’t do that, because they want Merlin going on an adventure, not Gaius, especially as we’ve just done a Gaius episode, and we get a max of one per season! lol but yeah, considering this is the first time we actually see Merlin being put in charge of anything physician-y, being in charge of the sweating sickness back in Camlot on his own would be showing a huge amount of trust and faith from Gaius, too, and allow Merlin to build up to going out and diagnosing illnesses on his own later on. But of course we’re not here to watch Merlin’s journey to becoming a A+ physician, so they can’t possibly do the logical thing… lol
— We had some really uncomfortable interactions with the knights and Merlin (stewâŚ) and it doesnât make the things seem quite as outrageous as they should.–
on the other hand we also have the Dragoon mocks them, throws them around, and uses them as stairs “joke”. I fear the show just has a very different sense of humour and what they can do in a story where things ‘aren’t real’, and often it feels like they only take the audience into account (ie the viewers know the knights are enchanted and therefore the abuse Merlin suffers isn’t really real) and forget to look at these things from the characters point of view (ie Merlin still suffers the abuse, even if halfway through he understands it’s not really them, it still physically happens to him)
— Now they managed to get all those characters in one episode in a way that works, but the characters arenât themselves so it doesnât give us anything useful. Itâs just frustrating.–
hadn’t acutally ever quite followed through that thought, but you’re absolutely right. and also? WOE.
M Xx
19th April 2021 @ 9:59 pm
– a return to the âadventureâ part of âThe Adventures of Merlinâ and it is true that we have not had that in a while, and itâs also something that I talk about in this weekâs podcast in regards to the fact that we havenât had one off villains the way we had on a weekly basis back in S1 and a lot of S2. everything is now Morgana, Agraivain, and THE PLOT. –
That certainly makes sense. The issue still remains that it doesnât fit into the concept of everything else in s4, in which everything tried to be somewhat important for the big picture. That invites to look at this episode the same way and you end up with a lot of confusion, because it just isnât focused enough in what it is trying to tell (or isnât trying to tell, as it might want to be an adventure episode). I at least ended up trying to figure out what the âlessonâ of the episode was.
This certainly isnât the kind of story I would have chosen to have an âadventureâ episode.
-the one good thing that has come from it (much like with the Goblin episode) is the discussions happening here on the topic of stereotypes and tropes and toxis representation in media, and looking at this story from all different angles and trying to pin down and disect it.â
Thatâs true! The comments have been fascinating this episode and itâs so interesting how different everyoneâs view on this ep is. Having a discussion about these topics is so important, as it sadly often finds its way in media and can only be solved by having discussions about it and becoming aware of where the issues are.
-But of course weâre not here to watch Merlinâs journey to becoming a A+ physician, so they canât possibly do the logical thing –
And yet if you see this episode in isolation one might almost think one of the subplots of Merlin is watching Merlin become a physician, while itâs never been something that has been given any time before.
Some kind of build up to see Merlin actively grow his physician skills could have evened out the whole thing a bit which wouldnât have let Gaiusâs trust seem to be based on very little (or Merlinâs capability to work with big responsibilities, instead of the actual skills required). It would have been nice to see more of that side of his character before and see that growth, so the audience is given a reason to trust in Merlinâs abilities.
– the show just has a very different sense of humour and what they can do in a story where things âarenât realâ –
Jep, the show does whatever it wants when a character isnât themself. And I never find it in any way funny, because apparently that allows them to hurt and insult other characters which is just… yikes
18th April 2021 @ 12:18 pm
Oh man, Lamia is… something.
I don’t think I can muster up a sonnet for this one, frankly!
It’s interesting that there’s mixed feelings in the comments about how Gwen is treated; I think Danuta and Mary both said that she’s presented as clever and brave rather than useless. I suppose it’s the difference between a) the script/acting and the individual beats which present Gwen one way and b) the overall narrative arc. I feel like this is often an issue in this show, to be honest. I feel like Angel’s acting and aspects of the script (though not everything) makes me feel in the moment that Gwen is brave and not acting UNintelligently given her very limited knowledge or experience in this kind of situation. But then at the end of the episode it just feels… wrong? Because her bravery didn’t really help anything (she didn’t help the knights in any way, her only action that had consequences was leading Arthur to them). I think that bothers me more than Merlin’s uselessness, because Merlin being unable to do anything in this situation at least has the potential to be interesting. It could have been a situation that taught Merlin how much he relies on Gaius (and others) for information – he was useless because he had no idea what was happening, and had no way of finding out (short of stealing a horse and riding back to Camelot with Gwen to get Gaius’ help, but that would leave the knights alone with Lamia). Besides, I think given Merlin’s trajectory over s4-5 it doesn’t feel out of place (for me at least) to see Merlin at a loss. But with Gwen there’s really no excuse; it feels like an injustice to her character and to Angel’s consistently brilliant acting. Angel isn’t playing Gwen as a damsel in distress, but the narrative turns her into one, and it’s so frustrating.
The magic reveal fake out also infuriates me, for so many reasons, some of which are spoilery I guess so I’ll be quiet now.
It’s also interesting that people have pointed out how not-sexualised Lamia is, and I really don’t know what to think. On one hand, as a mythological figure Lamia is very much a symbol of the dangerous sexuality of women, but on the other hand as people have said here there’s nothing particularly sexual about her portrayal here. I don’t know if the name Lamia and the very fact that the men are fighting over her is enough to make this a version of the dangerous female sexuality thing (and the show just wasn’t ever going to make the sexual aspect explicit), or if it’s doing something else – the weaponising of female vulnerability (I’m reminded of the way racist white women sometimes claim to be afraid of black men, or the “think of the little girls” argument against trans rights, for example – not that that’s what Lamia is doing, just that the image of a (usually) young, vulnerable, white woman gets used to manipulate people and situations, often in the service of white nationalism or purity culture). This is, from the latter angle, the knights’ chivalry being used against them, but I really don’t want that to be what the show is saying without much more nuance! The sexual angle seems more like what the show was going for, or at least the ownership and domination of a vulnerable young woman – the knights are going out of their way not just to help her but to /be seen/ to be helping her, and to be alone with her – as if they’re expecting some reward for it. The fact that that reward is sex goes unspoken but that doesn’t really make it any better.
18th April 2021 @ 1:59 pm
Itâs also interesting that people have pointed out how not-sexualised Lamia is, and I really donât know what to think. –
I think we’re all pretty confused However, perhaps we should be asking ourselves why the showrunners decided to use this particular mythological creature that is so bound up with sex and seduction when they knew they couldn’t present it like that on screen. I mean, there are ANY NUMBER of other creatures that would have allowed us to tell the same stories for Merlin or Gwen (as I said in a comment really, really far down). Why did they choose this one and make life difficult for themselves and their viewers?
19th April 2021 @ 12:19 pm
I felt foolish for not knowing that a Lamia is a real thing, and actually multiple people have by now written in and said ‘omg I never realised!!!’ so maybe they chose this because it’s one of the lesser known myths, and therefore allowed more room for interpretation and subversion? (I mean, I would say they didn’t succeed, but…. it’s a theory)
M Xx
20th April 2021 @ 4:46 pm
Don’t worry. I remember looking up the creature as well when I first watched the episode. Mainly because I had never heard of it but previous uses of magical creatures (dragon, griffin, goblin etc.) were all ‘real’ in mythology.
18th April 2021 @ 2:52 pm
-or if itâs doing something else â the weaponising of female vulnerability (Iâm reminded of the way racist white women sometimes claim to be afraid of black men, or the âthink of the little girlsâ argument against trans rights, for example â not that thatâs what Lamia is doing, just that the image of a (usually) young, vulnerable, white woman gets used to manipulate people and situations, often in the service of white nationalism or purity culture).-
Oh yes, I think you voiced the vibes I was getting from Lamia without realizing it! Thank you, now I know where it came from đ Obviously, it’s hard to say whether this was the intention behind her dynamics with the knights and Merlin, but her reaction to Merlin especially gave me flashbacks to some behavior of (usually) straight white women who (metaphorically or literally) scream in feigned horror every time anyone from a minority (black, trans…) approaches them. It’s making use of the patriarchal norms (women as needing to be protected from “danger” by strong men) in a particularly devious way. Here, Merlin isn’t doing anything, but the scream itself indicates to the knights that he must be the danger, after all, she wouldn’t scream if he weren’t, would she?
-The sexual angle seems more like what the show was going for, or at least the ownership and domination of a vulnerable young woman â the knights are going out of their way not just to help her but to /be seen/ to be helping her, and to be alone with her â as if theyâre expecting some reward for it.-
That is yet another aspect of the whole situation. As I mentioned in my original comment, the moment the knights “free” Lamia is framed as a particularly chivalrous moment for them, as no other scene with them in the series is. It almost verges on comical, with Percival holding Lamia as if he was posing for a sculpture titled “brave knight saves damsel in distress”, and then saying “don’t be afraid, we are knights of Camelot”. It doesn’t come across as natural concern, rather, as you pointed out, as them showing off to obtain a reward. Especially so the scene of the fight itself has them all being cocky and showing off how strong they are. I wish the episode was more clear on the fact that maybe it’s this showing off, not the willingness to help as such, that ends up to be the knights’ undoing.
19th April 2021 @ 12:24 pm
–It almost verges on comical, with Percival holding Lamia as if he was posing for a sculpture titled âbrave knight saves damsel in distressâ, and then saying âdonât be afraid, we are knights of Camelotâ.–
This had me pondering how quickly and how widely Lamia’s powers work, and how exactly they work, because it seems to me strongly implied that Percival is only cradling her like that because he is already under her spell, even if it’s just the beginning stages of it… and as the other knights draw near they are maybe tangentially affected, hence all of them posturing a bit much and the weird diolague lines that sound like they are in a monty python sketch. but I’m sort of wishing that ruth’s touch theory was more textual, and that everyone who wasn’t touched directly was just receiving a fringe brush of her powers, and therefore when Percival went over to check on her, he was affected immediately, leading to him cradling her like a damsel by the time the other knights turned up… I don’t know. the entire comment section is making me very ponderous…
M Xx
19th April 2021 @ 12:16 pm
–Oh man, Lamia is⌠something.
I donât think I can muster up a sonnet for this one, frankly!–
I know that’s mostly sad but actually really made me laught, because Carina wrote in to say that Lamia doesn’t deserve a poem, and Mark Allen wrote in with a single couplet only, hence the amusement đ
–I feel like Angelâs acting and aspects of the script (though not everything) makes me feel in the moment that Gwen is brave and not acting UNintelligently given her very limited knowledge or experience in this kind of situation.–
Which I think also adds an extra level regarding this problem, which is the fact that the show keeps her uninformed, and often keeps her uninformed in a way that makes her come across as less than intelligent, because so many of the things the show is keeping from her should be so obvious, so yes, in certain situations she absolutely, as you say, does the best with the limited knowledge she has, but then in others she shows just how resourceful, intelligent, and smart she really is, so when she has to make it through the less than intelligent episodes it almost still feels like you’re making it her fault, because she SHOULD know better.
–Itâs also interesting that people have pointed out how not-sexualised Lamia is, and I really donât know what to think. On one hand, as a mythological figure Lamia is very much a symbol of the dangerous sexuality of women, but on the other hand as people have said here thereâs nothing particularly sexual about her portrayal here.–
honestly, same. I think Danuta’s was the first comment to point out that Lamia wasn’t actually presented as particularly sexual on the show, and it really took me aback, because no, she isn’t. Other than being a vulnerable female that men take care of, and who she is enchanting. But you’re absolutely right, that’s about weaponising her female vulnerability, so it’s clearly my gaze and what I’ve been taught to expect that makes me read her as sensual and seductive, even when it’s not there. And I then went to read the fics that Danuta linked to, and the Lamia/Elena one all the way through uses descriptions that highlight Lamia’s seductiveness, describing her arranging herself in the most asthetically pleasing way when she hears hoof beats nearing, and there’s detailed description of how she’s arranging her legs and her dress that to me read seductive, rather than for example highlighting wounds and bruises. Sorry for thinking out loud at you, and obviously that was fanfic and therefore it’s an interpretation of the character to fit the story you’re telling, so it’s a different thing, anyway, but I just found it so fascinating to realise that yes, I was convinced that Lamia in the show is sexualised, and I was wrong, and then to straight away read someone else’s version of Lamia, and see the same sexualisation there. And actually, I certainly felt incredibly foolish when I realised that a Lamia is a mythological being that exists, so at least for me non of this is a hangover from the myth version that’s on my head, as i was unaware there was a myth version.
M Xx
18th April 2021 @ 11:14 am
Really interesting reading the comments, I do love when there are split opinions on an episode because I listen to the podcast feeling one way, and then am completely taken aback when I come on here.
I had the same problem as Britney which is- how does Gwen know Mary? I am so sure she has lived in Camelot her whole life, but perhaps not in the citadel. I remember hearing that her mother had worked for Sir Leon’s family- is this true? I think before this episode she has mentioned that she and Leon were childhood friends so I suppose that’s it. But anyway, it was nice to have some moments of power of competency from Gwen this episode, although I do feel that Arthur undermined that and patronised her in the last scene. What I really hate is how she patronised herself with the ‘Nothing a change of clothes can’t fix.’ comment! Coming from one of the knights that would have been fine, because it is true, but coming from her after the sexism that lead up to that point just felt wrong.
I had remembered the ‘You got saved by a girl’ line, all the way back when I listened to ‘The Moment of Truth’ podcast I remember thinking that line was in that episode, but you guys didn’t comment on it so I figured it must be later on. While I’m very glad it wasn’t there to tarnish that episode, it would have almost worked there. Back in season 1 we were working with a cockier, more ignorant version of Arthur `who wasn’t in love with Guinevere so kind of wasn’t so respectful to women? (Just in the sense that their first episode together with the farmer knight was all about learning to respect her). So that comment might have made sense then, but coming from the morally upstanding, has-a-long-term-girlfriend Arthur it is kind of awful.
With Agravaine covering up the tracks, it feels as though there was a cut scene where Morgana created Lamia or sent her out to attack the knights of Camelot? It would have made a lot of sense, I think Gaius even explains that it was the High Priestesses that created Lamia so it’s almost odd that Morgana wasn’t involved.
Ugh just imagine if Gwen found out. (SPOILER) Obviously at the end reveal, she seems to already know, but it would be cool to make it more clear that she knows. It would be a bit extreme for Merlin to know she knows, and I see why they don’t do it, because it sort of decentralised Merlin and created too much of a story outside of Arthur. However, I think this sort of dynamic change is what this show is begging for at this point! I just feel like we’ve done the whole sneaky-sorcerer storyline, and the show might benefit from something like that? But still, I will take all the lovely Arthur-Merlin moments they give us.
That’s kind of how I feel about Lamia- it’s a waste of space at this point as there is so much more we can do. This is why I’m so looking forward to next episode. I saw the little trailer at the end of Lamia and thought “Oh my god I’m going to get my heart broken. I can’t wait.”. There is one particular scene in the next episode where Angel Coulby is going to make me cry, and there is also one massive problem with the episode, which I know for sure you will pick up on.
Also I have absolutely loved reading the Poetry and Chicken!! Some absolutely gorgeous poems! ANNIS (by Cerina I think) was so brilliant and there are many more of them I loved.
18th April 2021 @ 2:04 pm
I had the same problem as Britney which is- how does Gwen know Mary? –
Strangely, I have never had a problem with this. I assume that Mary and John used to live in Camelot. After all, that explains why they know Gwen and why John knows and expects to see Gaius. It would explain a little bit more why he is so immediately dismissing Merlin when he steps forward and why Elyan, without introducing himself, defends him. Elyan would have known Mary and John as well.
And this is where the plot bunnies attacked me: What if Mary and John had to leave Camelot because (unbeknownst to Gwen of Elyan) they had some background or connection to magic? So, naturally, as the Purge continued to slaughter sorcerers, they eventually moved to the country. That would explain why John and Merlin were the only ones who verbalise feeling Lamia’s presence or why John, when Merlin cannot heal the villagers, immediately brings up sorcery. Perhaps that’s been his suspicion all along and that would explain his disappointment over Gaius’ absence even more since, perhaps, he hoped for some magical intervention from the old physician. Maybe…:)
18th April 2021 @ 2:51 pm
đđťđđťđđť Yes! I like it!! I donât know why Mary and John leaving Camelot never occurred to me! I like this theory of them being connected to magic! Yes!
18th April 2021 @ 3:21 pm
đ Thank the plot bunnies. đđđ
18th April 2021 @ 6:22 pm
oh wow, same here! it literally never occured to me that maybe Gwen didn’t live in the village with John and Mary, but maybe John and Mary lived in Camelot hahahaha
Thanks Mary!
18th April 2021 @ 10:24 pm
Oh yes I love this theory! The plot bunnies served you well! Perhaps also it was just John who was magic. He is the village elder, with that kind of authority you would expect him to be the one to meet with the King, but maybe it was safer to send Mary instead as he didn’t want to risk entering Camelot again as a magic user.
19th April 2021 @ 5:27 am
Very true! See, it all makes sense. đ
19th April 2021 @ 12:32 pm
—I had remembered the âYou got saved by a girlâ line, all the way back when I listened to âThe Moment of Truthâ podcast I remember thinking that line was in that episode, but you guys didnât comment on it so I figured it must be later on. While Iâm very glad it wasnât there to tarnish that episode, it would have almost worked there. Back in season 1 we were working with a cockier, more ignorant version of Arthur—
completely agree! I don’t want that line anywhere in my story, but back in season 1 Arthur said things like that, and it was part of why Merlin thought he was an idiot and a prat and why he couldn’t possibly be the person the dragon’s prophecy spoke of, and therefore it would be fine, because it was part of the learning curve that Arthur was going to have to go on.
–With Agravaine covering up the tracks, it feels as though there was a cut scene where Morgana created Lamia or sent her out to attack the knights of Camelot? It would have made a lot of sense, I think Gaius even explains that it was the High Priestesses that created Lamia so itâs almost odd that Morgana wasnât involved.–
yeah, someone else said that this could have been a Morgana ploy, rather than an unexpected Monster of the Week episode. I never thought of it that way, but I can totally see where people are coming from in regards to that!
–and there is also one massive problem with the episode, which I know for sure you will pick up on.–
no pressure! hahahahaha
M Xx
PS: So happy you’re enjoying Poetry & Chicken, it was the most delightful unexpected side benefit of the lessons game!! <3 <3 <3
18th April 2021 @ 9:51 am
So, like quite a few people here, I think this episode does not deserve to be in last place and has a lot of merit. In fact, when I checked my personal Merlin episode rating that I completed when I first watched the series, Lamia made it to the second-highest rating category and itâs an episode Iâve rewatched quite a few times.
Naturally, itâs got many flaws and I share many of the qualms you raised. But then others do not bother me whatsoever. I cannot share your dissatisfaction with Lamia enchanting only the men and using sexuality to do so. Firstly, thatâs what âthe Lamiaâ of legend did – they enchanted men and saying that Gwen ought to have been enchanted is kind of comparable to saying that vampires shouldn’t just want to drink blood but have a preference for orange juice also. Itâs simply in the make up of this particular mythological creature, THE Lamia as Gaius rightly points out, not a girl but a creature masquerading as a girl, to affect men.
Secondly, I actually think that the show has done everything is could to de-sexualise Lamia and her effect on the knights. I think Danuta or Britney pointed out her ragged clothing and helplessness. This doesnât prey on the menâs lust for her but on their compassion and willingness to help. Gwen points out that Lamia is âjust a girl – how could she affect them like this?â So, the show verbalises that Lamia is too young to be of interest to the knights which also makes it kind of excusable why Percival holds her so close when they first find her and we donât know whether sheâs been abused. I do wished they had cast a teenage actress to make all this more clear but then she does have to kiss the knights later on. But again, itâs âonlyâ a kiss, not sex as in the original myth! The question that stays with me is of course whether the show de-sexualised Lamia because they did not want to have a conversation about rape-culture or whether they had a specific target audience in mind. I suspect it was the latter.
I also do not share your opinion that Arthurâs joke to Merlin at the end breaks him as a character and makes his later scene with Gwen sound patronising. I think it is very clear (and we have seen enough of their relationship to confirm this) that Arthur really wants to tell Merlin he is glad he has survived this. It is noticeable especially since he has just come out of the sick house, sharing a wrist-grip with Percival to show that he is glad the knights have survived. Then he steps outside and first walks past Merlin before he returns, clearly wishing to convey the same to him. But Merlin isnât his knight – a wrist-grip isnât appropriate. So, in Arthurâs emotionally-stunted way, he gets the same across with banter and Merlin understands. I agree that the joke is not well chosen (letâs remember that the writers are also almost all men and, possibly, as emotionally stunted if they think this is funny?) but I think it is clear from the later scene with Gwen when Bradley plays it very straight and sincere, that his banter with Merlin was just a joke. It actually shows his development since season 1 where he sincerely couldnât admit that Morgana saved him from Valiant!
I agree with Danuta that the show does not portray Gwen as impotent but as clever and brave and the final scene hones in on how we should appreciate and honour that. I donât feel that Gwenâs almost realisation of Merlinâs powers doesnât go anywhere. After all, Merlin runs off when they hear a distressed shout and then itâs all octopus-monster fight where itâs clear Gwen is too occupied to think further about Merlin. But Gwen questioning Merlin is one in a line of past and future scenes where we see Gwen being more observant, slowly putting together the pieces that will ultimately SPOILER make her the only character to figure out Merlinâs secret by herself. This is actually really good character development here! Heck, wasnât she the one who questioned Merlin in season 1 episode 3 why he already knew about her fatherâs recovery!
I love Arthur in the final scene with Gwen: yes, she did not deal the killing blow but what kind of king would he be if he recognised people only for their successes? Instead, he recognises her for her bravery and gumption, like to any of his knights! I think thatâs beautiful. Allow me a school comparison: naturally, actual good grades and exam success is important but it is way more significant to acknowledge every student for their effort, dedication or good intentions.
I actually think the same is true for the entire episode: yes, there are a few things they didnât land – and who is surprised by this? But I actually think itâs written with really good messages and intentions at the heart of the episode.
We allow Gaius, Arthur and the knights to put their trust in Merlinâs physician skills and acknowledge that he is learning. Sadly, because we need complications to keep the episode running, Merlin canât be as proficient as we hope him to be. There is a small line from Gaius that could be taken as a bit of an affirmation: âMerlin was right. This is no ordinary illness. There is sossery (đ) at work here.â Only it would work so much better if John hadnât brought up the sorcery. Oops! A simple thing they could have done is to acknowledge at the end that the measures Merlin took with the invalids has kept them alive long enough until Gaius could cure them. Sadly, they didnât. âš
However, there is more that this episode wants to tell us about Merlin and it certainly isnât that he is impotent. You rightly pointed out that they stressed the physical dominance of Leon and Percival compared to Merlin. However, Merlin is potent and significant in this episode DESPITE their overpowering strength and statue and he remains loyal and faithful and doesnât abandon them, retaliate or give up on trying to reason with them DESPITE the way they treat him. DESPITE not being a knight and âjustâ a servant. Like he promises in the beginning, he helps in any way that he can. He does use his magic powers as well, quite often, in fact, in any situation where he can possibly get away with it. But calling faithfulness, forgiveness and belief in your friendsâ goodness and reason impotence just isnât right. I think without Merlin and Gwen there, the knights would have all fallen to Lamia long before. They keep them alive long enough for Arthur to get to them.
There is one unforgivable omission in this episode though, one that has bothered me from the very first time I watched it and I think it broke the characters of the knights for me a little bit. In what world is it acceptable NOT to include a scene where the knights apologise to Merlin? THAT, in my opinion, is the episodeâs greatest and most grievous failing!
Just a few notes on the side:
– I really donât like that Gwen says to Arthur that there is nothing wrong with her after the Lamia incident that a change of clothes couldnât cure. That is really stupid and sexist! You canât go and buy girls pretty clothes and all issues with them will be sorted. It makes Gwen (and all girls) out to be pretty shallow and materialistic and Gwen above all is anything but as this episode has shown!
– I have to chuckle when Elyan comes up behind Merlin after Johnâs disparaging comment to say that âHis name is Merlin.â Really? Thatâs the part you took offense to, Elyan? Not the fact that the man ignorantly dismissed Merlinâs medical prowess? LOL.
– I also shake my head at Gaius. When Merlin and the knights set out, he says that itâs the fourth case of the sweating sickness he has seen today, indicating the beginning of an exponential growth of infections. Yet, two days later, the sickness is all but past? I can attest, Gaius, that thatâs not how pandemics work or how long they last! Or maybe Gaius was so awesome that he managed to hem it in quickly and then I ask: where was Gaius when we needed him this year and last?! Gaius is the worst even when he is absent!
– I also find it strange that Arthur receives Mary in his bedroom. But it does draw a nice parallel to 1.10 when Hunith got an audience with Uther via Merlin and Arthur. She was received in the throne room, with Uther lording it over her up on the dais. She begs and falls to her knees. But Arthur is the kind of king that will admit citizens into his private chambers, sits down next to them as an equal to reassure them and encourage them that they can come to him with all issues. Itâs kind of lovely. đ
18th April 2021 @ 3:02 pm
-However, Merlin is potent and significant in this episode DESPITE their overpowering strength and statue and he remains loyal and faithful and doesnât abandon them, retaliate or give up on trying to reason with them DESPITE the way they treat him. DESPITE not being a knight and âjustâ a servant. Like he promises in the beginning, he helps in any way that he can. He does use his magic powers as well, quite often, in fact, in any situation where he can possibly get away with it. But calling faithfulness, forgiveness and belief in your friendsâ goodness and reason impotence just isnât right. –
You voiced it so well, thank you đ That’s exactly what I was thinking about Merlin in this episode. I always got the feeling that they clearly wanted to show that strength isn’t something that is in your muscles. The knights are all strong and powerful, looming over Merlin, but their behavior is clearly more and more ridiculous, as they walk into a trap with open arms. In contrast, Merlin might not be physically strong, he might be helpless against the knights’ power, but he’s clever, he’s compassionate, he’s a bigger man, because, despite being hurt over and over, he still wants to make sure the knights will survive this, that they will be okay. To be honest, I always found it pretty moving.
-There is one unforgivable omission in this episode though, one that has bothered me from the very first time I watched it and I think it broke the characters of the knights for me a little bit. In what world is it acceptable NOT to include a scene where the knights apologise to Merlin? THAT, in my opinion, is the episodeâs greatest and most grievous failing!-
AGREED! They were enchanted, but they still should say they’re sorry!
– I also shake my head at Gaius. When Merlin and the knights set out, he says that itâs the fourth case of the sweating sickness he has seen today, indicating the beginning of an exponential growth of infections. Yet, two days later, the sickness is all but past? I can attest, Gaius, that thatâs not how pandemics work or how long they last! Or maybe Gaius was so awesome that he managed to hem it in quickly and then I ask: where was Gaius when we needed him this year and last?! Gaius is the worst even when he is absent!-
Haha that is so true đ I guess this storyline just wouldn’t pass if Merlin was made now! Where, indeed, was Gaius in 2020? đ
18th April 2021 @ 3:28 pm
In contrast, Merlin might not be physically strong, he might be helpless against the knightsâ power, but heâs clever, heâs compassionate, heâs a bigger man, because, despite being hurt over and over, he still wants to make sure the knights will survive this, that they will be okay. To be honest, I always found it pretty moving. –
Me too! And this is aboslutely why I like this episode, like it pretty well, in fact, as my reflections here have made me realise. The message and emotional beats from Merlin are something that touch me and that I could subscribe to.
Where, indeed, was Gaius in 2020? đ-
Probably sitting somewhere in a chair, congratulating himself that he is teaching us independent thinking by making us figure things out by ourselves. He has been known to do the same to Merlin in a crisis of life and death. (See 1.3. when he lets Merlin figure out that the water is to blame for the Plague instead of rushing down to the water supply to eliminate the threat immediately; or, indeed, 2.10, when Arthur almost died battling King Olaf before Gaius told Merlin that he ought to ask the dragon for help since he hadn’t figured out how to break the love spell by himself.)
18th April 2021 @ 4:09 pm
Now that I think about it…. I think the first time I really noticed that Gwen might be picking up on Merlin not being your typical guy was in S1E4 when Merlin is sick and unconscious but muttering incantations.
19th April 2021 @ 1:03 pm
— In fact, when I checked my personal Merlin episode rating that I completed when I first watched the series, Lamia made it to the second-highest rating category and itâs an episode Iâve rewatched quite a few times.–
oh wow. that is quite a difference of opinion! oops haha
your points about enchanting men being exactly what the lamia of myth does is absolutely valid. I was unaware that a Lamia is a thing, and for some weird reason never felt the need to even stick the word into google to see what it brought up, which is stupid considering Merlin doesn’t ever (I don’t think) invent their own myths and mythical beasts, so it should have been obvious that the Lamia is based on something.
— Gwen points out that Lamia is âjust a girl â how could she affect them like this?â So, the show verbalises that Lamia is too young to be of interest to the knights which also makes it kind of excusable why Percival holds her so close when they first find her–
again, fair point I think, however I do think that the language used lends itself for you to focus on the ‘she’s JUST A GIRL’ (ie female and therefore weak), rather than the ‘she’s just a GIRL’ (ie a child, rather than a female), or maybe i’m just jaded, but when people say ‘you run like a girl!’ what they mean is female, not child, as in you run like the weaker sex rather than the manly man that you are, and when Gwen says ‘she’s just a girl’ those are the echos that I hear. Even though I appreciate it coming from a female character (and a self assured strong female character that mostly doesn’t let herself be pushed around or belittled) the weight should land on girl as in child. For me unfortunately it just doesn’t. And yes, casting an actual child, as you said, would have helped with that. Alternatively not using a myth that is that steeped in sex and therefore needed to be censored this heavily…
—I also do not share your opinion that Arthurâs joke to Merlin at the end breaks him as a character and makes his later scene with Gwen sound patronising.—
I definitely want to address this on the podcast, so I won’t go into a long ramble here, but I apologise for the inprecise language used by us, if what you took from it was that we thought it broke Arthur’s character beyond repair or something similar. that certainly wasn’t my intention. But I do hope to be talking about this in the comment section, so I’ll stop here. If we don’t, please poke me and make me come back to this thought!!! lol
— This is actually really good character development here! Heck, wasnât she the one who questioned Merlin in season 1 episode 3 why he already knew about her fatherâs recovery!–
I guess so, yeah. That just seems like a really really long time ago, for it to not have gone anywhere. And it’s not Gwen’s fault. The story isn’t about her, so we dip in and out of her story, whenever it suits us, and she learns and unlearns things, however it suits the story. I guess in that regard I’m feeling the same frustration as I do with Arthur never seeming like he’s lived through the last 6 years, and constantly having to learn his lessons over and over again, because he can’t remember them from the last time he learnt them.
Many of our characters are protrayed as very intelligent, but then fail at putting the pieces together, not because it’s too hard, but because the story makes them forgot that they already have piece A by the time they pick up piece B. =/
— Allow me a school comparison: naturally, actual good grades and exam success is important but it is way more significant to acknowledge every student for their effort, dedication or good intentions.–
đ đ đ okay, that made me smile A LOT!
–There is a small line from Gaius that could be taken as a bit of an affirmation: âMerlin was right. This is no ordinary illness. There is sossery (đ) at work here.â Only it would work so much better if John hadnât brought up the sorcery.–
yeah, the sorcery makes it all work less well when we are using it as a reason as to why Merlin didn’t manage to fix it… lol
— I think without Merlin and Gwen there, the knights would have all fallen to Lamia long before. They keep them alive long enough for Arthur to get to them.–
I don’t disagree at all, and you’re right, the fact that Merlin and Gwen stick around to save their friends despite of how horrible their friends are to them is huge, and shouldn’t be dismissed. I guess I just struggle with why they have to do this long enough for Arthur to get to them. I just don’t think that Arthur was needed in this episode. Especially because you’re already changing the Lamia myth and allowing Merlin to remain clear headed and unaffected. And you’ve got Gwen in adition to that. And as soon as they get the chance, they go after the Lamia and fight her… why not allow them to actually kill her? Arthur doesn’t need the bonus hero points.
–There is one unforgivable omission in this episode though, one that has bothered me from the very first time I watched it and I think it broke the characters of the knights for me a little bit. In what world is it acceptable NOT to include a scene where the knights apologise to Merlin? THAT, in my opinion, is the episodeâs greatest and most grievous failing!–
very fair point. I spoke about this above in a different response, but the show often suffers from forgetting to look at the episode from any view other than the audiences. We know the knights were enchanted so it’s fine, we know they didn’t mean it, and therefore there’s no need to show an apology from the knights, because they weren’t themselves, they couldn’t help it. What the show fails to do is look at this from merlin’s POV. Even thought he of course also knows that the knights were enchanted and didn’t mean it, he still suffered the abuse for the last 2-3 days. And the show fails to look at this from the knight’s POV. Unlike in previous enchanted episodes, you’re not making it explicit that the knights don’t remember a thing, therefore we have to assume that they do. also because not everyone was affected, merlin, Gwen, Arthur, Agraivain, and Gaius, plus all of the village know what happened, so the knights are going to find out sooner or later. so yeah, why would they not feel the need to apologise?? đ
—â I have to chuckle when Elyan comes up behind Merlin after Johnâs disparaging comment to say that âHis name is Merlin.â Really? Thatâs the part you took offense to, Elyan? Not the fact that the man ignorantly dismissed Merlinâs medical prowess? LOL.—–
hahahah it could have only been topped if he’d said “The BOY is called MERLIN” really rubbing in that yeah, he may be young, and yeah, he may suck, but at least he has a name! hahaha
–â I also find it strange that Arthur receives Mary in his bedroom. But it does draw a nice parallel to 1.10 when Hunith got an audience with Uther via Merlin and Arthur. She was received in the throne room, with Uther lording it over her up on the dais. She begs and falls to her knees. But Arthur is the kind of king that will admit citizens into his private chambers, sits down next to them as an equal to reassure them and encourage them that they can come to him with all issues. Itâs kind of lovely. đ—-
yeah, i do think that’s what they were trying to do. they already started it in 4×1/2 with the girl from the village where everyone had died, where Arthur is on floor level with her, which also felt like a contrast to how Uther would have done these things… I think they just haven’t really nailed the delivery, but it’s not egregious or anything, it’s just funny
M Xx
20th April 2021 @ 5:03 pm
I do think that the language used lends itself for you to focus on the âsheâs JUST A GIRLâ (ie female and therefore weak), rather than the âsheâs just a GIRLâ (ie a child, rather than a female), or maybe iâm just jaded –
You know, I completely understand about the way you feel. Unfortuntately, the word ‘girl’ or ‘girly’ is used so often to imply something dismissive about women/girls. I think both interpretations are equally valid and it depends of how you hear it. I like that you pointed out that they gave the line to Gwen and especially her follow up with ‘How could she affect them like this?’ leads me personally to hear this as, ‘She is a mere child and too young to cause the knights to become lustful and volatile.’
I definitely want to address this on the podcast, so I wonât go into a long ramble here –
Looking forward to this! đ And don’t worry about your language – it was the end of a tiring and frustrating episode for you. Also, I remember listening to this on my walk to work, so I may have missed beats because cars were passing by.
I guess I just struggle with why they have to do this long enough for Arthur to get to them. I just donât think that Arthur was needed in this episode. –
I really agree. It would have been better to have Merlin and Gwen finish the Lamia off in a twin effort. I guess they just wanted to give Arthur something to do? But there really wasn’t a need for him to do that at all. Shame. But Gwen and Merlin still get all my loyalty points!
âThe BOY is called MERLINâ –
LOL! And suddenly we realise that the mockery and bullying of Merlin had nothing to do with the Lamia at all. Poor Merlin – he was trying to act so mature and confident and then he is shot down by an ignorant village elder and then one of his knight ‘friends’ too.
Also: glad my school metaphor made you smile. đ
21st April 2021 @ 3:12 pm
— Unfortuntately, the word âgirlâ or âgirlyâ is used so often to imply something dismissive about women/girls.–
I’ve been thinking about this a lot this week, and sort of came to realise that I grew up with an impossible to please / make proud father and a very dismissive of me and my idol worship older brother, so I spent most of my child hood trying to be accepted by either of them. My dad is OBSESSED with sports, and it’s pretty much the only thing that can hold his attention, so sport is what we did. My brother played tennis, so I started to play tennis, until he gave it up at which point I gave it up, too, my brother played football, which I have NO talent for, meaning it became something i couldn’t join in on, then he started playing skater hockey, and I could totally do that, to a point where I ended up on the men’s team officially (because there wasn’t a women’s team in my town or anywhere near, and due to me being under the age of 16, they allowed it – some child/pre-puberty nonsense? I have no idea…) so I trained with and competed with the men’s team for years and years. My brother also started a hobby village street hockey league one summer, and I was the only girl that played in the league, and thinking about all this made me realise that I literally grew up, working really hard to prove that I could be ‘as good as one of the guys’ – and on a regular basis was told things like ‘you’re not bad, for a girl’, and when I became a goal keeper the fact that I was female was heavily used not to insult me in any way directly, because the guys on my team and lads from oposing teams hugely respected me, but they used my gender in expressions of micro aggressions, as a way for them to insult each other. ie ‘I can’t believe we lost to a girl’ and ‘Dude, aren’t you ashamed you missed a penalty, and against a girl of all people…’ – And that was a decade of my life, and all it taught me was that I had to be less feminine and try to fit in even harder, to be accepted by the guys, who I absolutely looked at as superior.
And now for the last decade I’ve worked in a field that is seen predominantly as a male profession (farming as an industry), and on top of that is incredibly demanding physically, and so much of my day to day job involved having to ‘hold my own’ against adult males in this professions, and professions I overlapped with. I did an insane amount of DYI on the farm, I’ve always been pretty willing to get stuck on and have no fear of power tools, but I taught myself how to brick lay, I learnt how to concrete yards, I have built entire animal enclosures, insulated and cladded out a ceiling, and put up livestock fencing, and every time I had to walk into a building supplies place or hire a cement mixer or a similar “manly” tool, I’d be looked at funnt at first, and then with surprise and unexpected respect because ‘you know what you’re talking about… that’s so unexpected, considering you’re a girl’… And don’t even get me started on having to visit large animal incineration places and interact with the men that work in those places… long psychiatry session later (I do apologise, turns out I process out loud 90% of the time hahaha) maybe I am more sensitive to this type of microaggression, because I do take it more personal.
— It would have been better to have Merlin and Gwen finish the Lamia off in a twin effort. I guess they just wanted to give Arthur something to do? —
he’s in every single episode, give the boy some time off!!! LOL
–LOL! And suddenly we realise that the mockery and bullying of Merlin had nothing to do with the Lamia at all. Poor Merlin â he was trying to act so mature and confident and then he is shot down by an ignorant village elder and then one of his knight âfriendsâ too.—
actually, this just made me think if we had any suggestion that all of the dismissive references to Merlin as ‘boy’ were actually realistic in terms of his age, compared to especially Arthur and the knights…. you could of course also use that as a reason as to why Merlin isn’t affected by Llamia. Literally because he’s too young, and she doesn’t prey on “children”.
It obviously wouldn’t hold up for more than 5 seconds, but that just struck me, and as we learned above… I process out loud haha
M Xx
21st April 2021 @ 10:23 pm
Wow, thank you for sharing that. It’s really impressive that you can reflect on your own history with the ‘girly’ rhetoric and analyse it in this way. I think if we all did a little more of this, we wouldn’t be having to battle the idea that being a girl is sometimes seen as lesser or used as veiled insults, etc.
I didn’t have the same experiences with a brother growing up (only have sisters) but I had the problem that growing up, in my church youth group, there were only boys my age. There were plenty of girls a year or two younger or older but you know there is this time when you absolutely cannot hang out with anyone older or younger than yourself. Also, because there were plenty of girls in their years, they were already fast friends and I found it really difficult because I couldn’t be with them and always felt I couldn’t measure up to any of the boys in my year. I was already always the tomboy in my family (having decided when I was about 6 or 7 that I would be the boy in the family since my parents didn’t have a son – thankfully, that really just came from me, my parents never gave me the impression that they regretted having only daughters). But I couldn’t compete with five boys in my youth group who wouldn’t take me seriously or let me play football with them. When I think back, it is astounding how many terrible things they said to me because I was a girl and they were the majority. They didn’t think about this of course: Mary always talks a lot of rubbish no one understands; Mary is always too emotional; Mary can’t have proper fun etc.
It took me years and years until I actually realised how damaging and dismissive their words actually were – back then it was just the norm. But I remember the moment when it really hit me how much I had bought into their ‘girly’ rhetoric without questioning it, while still feeling hurt. I was at uni and speaking to someone in my church in the UK and after talking for a while, I apologised, as was very usual for me, for talking so much. And then my friend said, “Mary, you know you’ve got to start apologising for that. You don’t talk too much and even if you talk a lot, that’s who you are and that’s awesome.”
And it was then I realised how true that was and how much my identity and self-worth was still caught up in what ignorant little boys had said ages ago. And some still do, sadly. But now I can set them straight, I think while obviously that experience growing up was hurtful (and who doesn’t have a story like that to share?), it has really helped me become aware of the casual sexist remarks or attitudes so that I am able to gently point them out and, hopefully, spare a few of the younger generation the same experience. There you go – that was my therapy session. But it’s a fascinating topic and something I feel passinoate about.
Bringing it back roung to Merlin – I do appreciate that they had Gwen say the line and that Arthur’s mysogyny was clearly made out to be ridiculous. But why they had to have it in there at all is still a mystery. Or maybe not? I really wish I wouldn’t be able to so easily draw a possible line between the inclusion of the joke and the fact that most of the writers were male.
21st April 2021 @ 10:27 pm
Oh my word, I just made the stupidest typo in the world. Lol – it changes the whole story. Obviously, my friend told me that I should STOP apologising not to START. đ (Note to self: always proofread!)
25th April 2021 @ 5:36 pm
not to worry, I totally automatically corrected that as I was reading it, anyway đ
which actually made me wonder… do you get the option to edit your comment? should be next to the date and time stamp. I have it as an option, but didn’t know whether you needed to have a profile and be logged in, for the website to offer that… just random pondering.
M Xx
25th April 2021 @ 5:44 pm
–It took me years and years until I actually realised how damaging and dismissive their words actually were â back then it was just the norm.–
isn’t it wild though? And I fully appreciate that literally everyone is going to have stories like your or mine, of course they do, as you say, it’s just the norm… but that’s wild in and off itself.
Also, good on your friend for “calling you out” (in the nicest way!!) and telling you to stop apologising for being you. If only more of us did that, too!
A ‘sorry for babbling’ kind of comment is so easily brushed aside, not because anyone’s being cruel, or even necessarily agrees that you are babbling, but just because you shrug it off, in a ‘don’t worry about it’ kind of way (which translates to ‘yes, you are babbling, but I don’t mind’), rather than ‘no. you’re not babbling. there’s nothing wrong with you and the way you express yourself. go on.’ which is what we all should train ourselves to say in these situations. I bet there’s dozens of other things like that, that people say or do, and that I’ve shrugged my shoulders at to say ‘don’t be silly, not at all, you’re fine’ but that could come across as ‘I agree with your critisism of yourself, but I accept it’ instead đ
–I really wish I wouldnât be able to so easily draw a possible line between the inclusion of the joke and the fact that most of the writers were male.–
sigh. I feel that way about so so much of Merlin, but also so so so so much of most television. and it’s exhausting, but if you let yourself get tired of it and stop talking about it, “they” win.
M Xx
16th April 2021 @ 3:04 pm
Thank you so much for the unexpected lesson point!! Really sorry about how long that one was, I started thinking about Arthur in that episode and then just rambled and rambled and rambled… anyways, I digress. Thank you! Also itâs featherbow like the bow and arrow :))
I was wondering if you felt the misogyny in this episode was a lot more egregious than the (unfortunately many) previous examples of this type of misogyny in the show? It certainly felt like this instance was called out more forcefully on the podcast, and had a greater contribution to where the episode was ultimately ranked, than previous ones. The ones related to Arthur that immediately jump to mind are 1×02 when he couldnât admit he needed Morganaâs help to defeat Valiant, and 2×08 when he couldnât believe he was beaten by a woman. It really bothers me that thereâs no character growth for Arthur on this subject, now that weâre in season 4 and heâs meant to be showing us why heâs going to be the shiniest King ever, but the actual misogyny (that Arthur is the manliest man to ever man, and he canât possibly accept the help of a weak, womanly woman!) is along the same lines as those previous instances.
Viewing that scene as Arthur not respecting Gwen or thinking her incapable really bothers me, especially in light of whatâs coming up next episode. For my own sanity, I tend to view the scene with Merlin as Arthur attempting to tap into their usual banter with a generic joke, except his (and the showâs) ingrained misogyny means the joke he makes is highly problematic. I donât think he means it as an insult to Gwenâs competency, or as a way to undermine her specifically. And in the following scene with Gwen, Bradley and Angel play it straight in a way that reads to me as though Arthur is genuinely proud of Gwen in a âwow youâre a badassâ way instead of the condescending âI canât believe everyone was so incompetent YOU had to be the warriorâ way the previous scene implies. Doesnât make the misogyny in any way excusable, but at the very least it turns into an implicit bias Arthur needs to eliminate rather than him deliberately belittling and disrespecting the woman he loves behind her back. And maybe (Iâm clearly grasping desperately at straws in an attempt to make sense of this) itâs an example of the dichotomy we often see in real lifeâpeople can have a lot of respect for their sister, or their mother, or some other person connected closely to them that they would ânever dream of treating in such a wayâ, without actually broadening that respect from those in their personal circle to ALL women or ALL people of a marginalized community.
Overall, I think this episode struggles because of its bull-in-the-china-shop approach to discussing female power, sexuality, and competency. Itâs not something the show as a whole does particularly well in any story arc (*cough* Morgana, or even just the next episode). These are ideas weâre still working on in broader society outside of television, so if youâre going to build an episode on them, it has to be done with thought and nuance and care. Lamia didnât do that, and I think suffers for it.
19th April 2021 @ 2:10 pm
–Also itâs featherbow like the bow and arrow :))–
we were like 98% sure it would be, but it seemed rude to assume hahaha thanks for clarifying! đ
–I was wondering if you felt the misogyny in this episode was a lot more egregious than the (unfortunately many) previous examples of this type of misogyny in the show?–
hoping to speak to that in the up top section this week, so will not ramble at you twice, however should we not get around to it, or should you wish for more elaboration do please poke me to come back and talk about this here, after Thursday, and I totally will!! đ However I completely agree that the main problem of the episode (and unfortunately a lot of Merlin the show) is about a lack of attention being paid to all the implications tied up in your messaging, separate from what your intentions may have been.
M Xx
23rd April 2021 @ 1:31 am
The discussion at the top of the episode was really interesting, loved hearing your thoughts! I completely see both the “this is season 4 and Arthur should be better now” and the “this episode did little else to foster goodwill” reasonings, and think both make a lot of sense. Thanks for taking the time to discuss this in detail!
24th April 2021 @ 10:50 am
Xx
16th April 2021 @ 4:05 am
Hello y’all!
Before I get into my thoughts on this episode, I’d like to say BOTH of you should try a funnel cake! It’s fried, airy bread that has usually a lot of powdered sugar on top. It’s heavenly! I guess it is kind of like a donut, but not shaped like one at all. They are amazing!
So, I generally love season 4, but this episode is not one of my favorites. Here are my thoughts:
I don’t understand how Gwen knows this Mary. At some point in this show (I cannot remember if it was in previous episodes or SPOILER when Gwen gets banished after next episode), Gwen says she hasn’t been anywhere but Camelot and only knows Camelot. She made it very clear her whole life was here in Camelot and since this is y’olde times that makes a lot of sense to me. So, then how does she know Mary? I think it would be better if Elyan was our link to Mary and John. He was gone doing who knows what in his earlier years and probably knows more people in the outside villages than Gwen does. It would be a nice way to show us a little Elyan background/history. Since Elyan is a knight, he certainly could get an audience with Arthur. I know Gwen going along for the journey is a huge part of this since she isn’t affected by Lamia but perhaps she could volunteer to join Merlin to care for the sick since these people are important to Elyan??
I really related to the scenes of Gaius boosting Merlin and saying he believes in him. I am a nurse and this reminded me of preceptors training nursing students/new nurses. They give words of encouragement and eventually hand over the reins and let the newbies take charge even though the newbies might not have full confidence in themselves.
I know exactly how Merlin feels when John is cross and demands to know where Gaius is (Oh! How does this dude from a far off village even know Gaius’s name??). Even though I was well into my twenties when I was a new nurse, I would get asked all the time “How old are you?” or “How long have you been doing this??” It was like the patients or family members were demanding to know where the old and experienced nurse was. Patients/family members tend to give the newbies more crap because I think they can sense the lack of self confidence and nervousness. I remember being told by a few older nurses that all changes when you get some grey hair.
When you are a new nurse, your training kicks in and you surprise yourself with a plan. Merlin assesses the patients and a reasonable treatment plan comes to him. He even remembered the most important thing from the beginning of the season….”Plenty of blankets!” I am annoyed with one thing during Merlin’s assessment. John says he has no idea what happens to them and it “just strikes suddenly without warning,” but then the next day he says there was “a presence- an evil in the air.” Maybe since Merlin is a newbie, he hasn’t learned you have to ALWAYS ask a ton of questions and sometimes the same question worded a bit differently to actually get the full story from any patient or family member.
I really enjoy the bit where Gwaine and Merlin joke about Sir Gwaine getting killed by a fishing pole and Merlin pretending to poke him with the pole. It feels like their old selves, but there was a lot of hissing just going on…. Why didn’t Merlin ask “So, did you hear that hissing while you were pissing?”
The knights fight scene is very… interesting. Initially, I liked it because I see the old Gwaine here. It seems in character that Gwaine sees someone in distress and even though his odds aren’t the greatest (seems there are a lot of “bandits”) he just draws his swords and runs off to be the hero without even thinking about it. They even play his theme, the old bar brawl song from when we first met him! It feels a lot like the bar fight because there is a lot of punching initially and the knights are kind of doing the smiling and nodding thing. It feels very fun and not that serious, but then Elyan stabs someone and Percival breaks someone’s back…. but the fun music is still playing. đ¤¨
I really don’t understand this curse. So, one moment the knights all hate each other and are fighting, then the next moment they are worried about their lost fellow knight, Elyan? Then they find Elyan and bite Merlin’s head off when he suggested they get Elyan to Gaius for help? I guess the point is that Lamia hurts one of them and then suggests the castle so they would all go there and she could eat all of them in her death den, the castle?
I completely agree that Agravaine does not need to be a part of this search party. It is interesting that he was dressed as a Camelot knight initially when he wasn’t doing anything traitorous, but then when he starts covering up tracks and getting rid of evidence he is in his black “bad guy” uniform. If only Arthur paid attention to his Uncle’s outfit choice of the day…
I did not notice until I read CoreyAdara’s comment that Merlin uses magic when Gwen could probably see it during the fight. He also relites his torch in the castle and Gwen is like right beside him. I wonder if maybe Gwen does notice, but just keeps her suspicions to herself…SPOILER I mean she doesn’t seem surprised AT ALL at the end of the show to discover Merlin is a sorcerer. Perhaps this is the episode she first discovers his secret and decides to keep it since he is a good friend of hers, but Arthur is her love and she isn’t sure how he would handle this news.
When they walk into Lamia’s den of death…. the song Maneater by Daryl Hall and John Oates started playing in my mind (https://youtu.be/yRYFKcMa_Ek). I think this song would have been a nice touch in this moment. Haha just kidding…sort of.
I LOVE Gwen being brave and shit! I REALLY REALLY wish it was Gwen that killed the beast and that Arthur made it there to see it, but was just a second too late to be the hero. That would have been so lovely!
I know a lot of people are offended by Arthur’s joke about being saved by a woman or being dead, but I actually smile at it. I probably should be offended, but I guess I just don’t believe Arthur is really serious. I think he’s just finding a new way to joke and in a bro way tell Merlin he is glad he isn’t dead. I love Arthur’s hilarious facial expressions and Merlin’s response is perfect.
I do believe he is serious in telling Gwen he is proud of her, but she has been brave many times before. Has Arthur just not been around for those moments or was he just not paying attention?
Overall, this episode is not my fav because I cringe every time the knights bully Merlin even though I know it is the curse. Also, just want to say I am not really looking forward to the next episode. I have re-watched most of Merlin about three times, but I have only see this next episode once…
16th April 2021 @ 2:01 pm
-Why didnât Merlin ask âSo, did you hear that hissing while you were pissing?â-
OMG this should totally be some kind of a slogan đ đ đ
-I know a lot of people are offended by Arthurâs joke about being saved by a woman or being dead, but I actually smile at it. I probably should be offended, but I guess I just donât believe Arthur is really serious. I think heâs just finding a new way to joke and in a bro way tell Merlin he is glad he isnât dead. I love Arthurâs hilarious facial expressions and Merlinâs response is perfect. –
I’m divided on that one. I really like Merlin’s reactions, and I totally think that if Arthur 100% believed what he was saying, he wouldn’t have basically deconstructed his whole way of thinking the next sentence (gesturing as if the alternative of “being dead” to “being saved by a woman” is really a serious alternative he’s contemplating…)…? Idk, it’s hard to say. But I definitely think that, if anything, this type of “banter” would be more at place for s1 Arthur, not now.
16th April 2021 @ 8:15 pm
Totally agree with you that this banter definitely feels more like season 1 Arthur. Like I said…. I prob should be offended but I just kind of brush it off. Probably bc I love Bradley James so much. Not saying thatâs a good excuse but itâs an honest one.
17th April 2021 @ 3:41 pm
Oh! Just saw this https://pin.it/5C2hYqO. (I hope the link worked!) đ
18th April 2021 @ 2:07 pm
I love this – also, I do think that any episode showing off how handsome Colin is CANNOT be pointless. Rather the opposite. đ
19th April 2021 @ 1:07 pm
that first pic, with the eyebrow raise is VERY NICE
18th April 2021 @ 2:06 pm
I donât understand how Gwen knows this Mary. –
Maddy brought up the same idea and I replied with my theory on her comment. In case you are interested. đ
19th April 2021 @ 2:30 pm
Having googled funnel cakes and having spent WAY TOO LONG looking at pictures, I whole heartedly agree that if I ever get a chance to eat a funnel cake, fluten intolerance be damned, I will be munching on that baby! đ đ
— I think it would be better if Elyan was our link to Mary and John. He was gone doing who knows what in his earlier years and probably knows more people in the outside villages than Gwen does. —
while I know Mary has already taken care of the plot hole in regards to how Gwen known J&M, I do totally agree that the show never leans into Elyan’s past vagabondage ways (or Gwaines, for that matter, though he gets to occassionally deliver some knowledge that he’s clearly acquired through his travels – like with the sand information in The Secret Sharer) and it would be really nice if we expanded the world through background and experience of the knights.
–I really related to the scenes of Gaius boosting Merlin and saying he believes in him. I am a nurse and this reminded me of preceptors training nursing students/new nurses. They give words of encouragement and eventually hand over the reins and let the newbies take charge even though the newbies might not have full confidence in themselves.–
absolutely agree, and we definitely could have made more of the fact that Gaius is AWESOME for once, rather than the worst, because god knows when it’s going to happen next… lol but for now, Gaius is fab in championing Merlin and his learnt skill!!!
–It was like the patients or family members were demanding to know where the old and experienced nurse was. Patients/family members tend to give the newbies more crap because I think they can sense the lack of self confidence and nervousness. I remember being told by a few older nurses that all changes when you get some grey hair.–
which considering how tough the job is probably happens sooner rather than later, but gosh, I can only imagine how tough it must be. I remember someone saying this once, and it’s really stuck with me, that a young doctor/nurse has more recently been through school, passed exams, remembers all the things they crammed for, and hasn’t yet forgotten half the things and got settled in tried and tested ways of dealing with the other half. and all of that counts for something! I like to remind myself, and others, of that. the confidence and getting over nervs comes with time, but doesn’t actually have any affect on knowledge.
–Maybe since Merlin is a newbie, he hasnât learned you have to ALWAYS ask a ton of questions and sometimes the same question worded a bit differently to actually get the full story from any patient or family member.–
which i do think is a skill that people either don’t pay enough attention to when it is taught, or is very quickly forgotten (and again, I would say, more likely to be forgotten by people who have done the job for a long long time and therefore are already forming opinions in their heads over what you have, without actually asking you all the necessary questions, because they’ve heard it all before) and maybe I’m being unfair, but I have certainly sat in many a doctor’s office and sometimes you feel really upset or uncomfortable about something that’s going on with you, and you can’t really explain it, but you feel if only you were asked the right questions, then you could give it a go… and those questions were never asked. may be my personal experience more than something that can be generalised, but I certainly agree with your assessment of Merlin still having something to learn. Then again, we called out in the Nimueh Avaank episode that Gaius doesn’t seem to put a lot of importance on asking questions of his patients, when he finds the first still alive infected person and leaves him to die in the street, rather than ask him pertinent questions pertaining to his illness lol
— It feels very fun and not that serious, but then Elyan stabs someone and Percival breaks someoneâs backâŚ. but the fun music is still playing. 𤨖
yeah, it’s super weird! and actaully, I quite like your thinking in regards to Gwaine being the one who charges into the fight, and therefore the musical queue picks up for him, and that’s why we’re getting the tavern brawl and market fight music. but yes, by the end it just seems crass and inappropriate. =/
–I really donât understand this curse. So, one moment the knights all hate each other and are fighting, then the next moment they are worried about their lost fellow knight, Elyan? Then they find Elyan and bite Merlinâs head off when he suggested they get Elyan to Gaius for help? I guess the point is that Lamia hurts one of them and then suggests the castle so they would all go there and she could eat all of them in her death den, the castle?–
i mean, who even knows. the lack of precision is my main issue with the episode really, as I just don’t know anyone’s motivation or any details about how lamia’s powers work. If you were so inclined you could probably watch the episode again and track a) physical contact and b) proximity to lamia, to see if it correlated with the level of enchantement the knights are displaying or not displaying. But one shouldn’t have to do that amount of work, to make sense of a story mechanic đ
— Perhaps this is the episode she first discovers his secret and decides to keep it since he is a good friend of hers, but Arthur is her love and she isnât sure how he would handle this news.–
which to me is the only justifiable thing the show can do at this point, really. If Gwen finds out about Merlin’s magic and tells Merlin that she knows and they talk about it, she either has to offer to keep it from Arthur or even worse Merlin has to ask her to keep it from Arthur (or of course Arthur has to find out, which is what we all want, but clearly isn’t what the show wants) and neither of those options are acceptable. The only option is that Gwen figures out that Merlin has magic, or starts to figure it out, but doesn’t ever bring it up, because it’s the only way she can keep Merlin save without betraying Arthur.
–I LOVE Gwen being brave and shit! I REALLY REALLY wish it was Gwen that killed the beast and that Arthur made it there to see it, but was just a second too late to be the hero. That would have been so lovely!–
I would have loved every second of that!!!
M Xx
16th April 2021 @ 2:21 am
I actually really dislike the fight scene between the knights and the bandits. It starts because the knights were about to sneak around them until they saw a girl being assaulted. The bouncy barroom Brawl music kicks in and their fight with the bandits is played for comedy. This not only could have shown us a serious look at each of their unique combat skills in action to make them all stand out yet work well together, but they laughed and high fives more or less at their win when the men run off, forgetting they had fought the bandits because a girl was hurt! Also Merlin uses magic blatantly out in the open to make a bandit trip on his back and that was enough to knock him out. Gwen was following close behind Merlin into the fray for some reason, if she saw that, and she should have, that would have sparked suspicion.
Like you guys said, I also thought it was crazy how many of Arthurâs personal favourite knights went along to accompany Merlin and Gwen to this seemingly normal village with no cause for concern other than a seemingly normal sickness outbreak. Yes Gwen is Arthurâs girlfriend and so deserves all the trusted protection, especially with Morgana around, but Morgana wasnât even name dropped in this episode, I donât think, so itâs like Gwen is getting all the knights for no reason. If Gwen wasnât going, would Arthur have sent so many of his best knights for purely merlinâs sake? After âa servant of two mastersâ, the events of losing injured Merlin for a few days is completely forgotten by Arthur and he has no concerning thoughts of Merlin disappearing along with Gwen and the knights, considering he sees him still as a weak pup.
After first going to Lamia, the knightsâ behaviour around her even before the hostility has even started makes me cringe. They are being a little crowded, too touchy feely and too familiar all at once to a girl who in their eyes has been captured, hurt and maybe nearly sexual assaulted by bandits, they should get that the last thing she wants right now is to surrounded and held into place by another lot of strange men. Especially after how she lunged away from Merlin, Leon dove in and laid a hand on her shoulder anyway, and Percival strokes her face inches from his own. These actions made me so uncomfortable, give the girl space or let Gwen take over!
Since the episode is sort of one isolated plot on its own (without the last scene hinting at Arthur and Gwen for the next episode), it could have been placed before âSecret sharerâ, so then it would have made a tiny connection to Merlin feeling extra alone and his off behaviour towards Gwaine, and Gwaine becoming friendly with Merlin again could be seen as him trying to make up for how horribly he treated Merlin unwittingly under lamiaâs influence. After all, there have been enough fix-it fics on this episode, where it extends the ending to the knights feeling so horrible for their treatment of Merlin and Gwen, be it bewitched, and they apologise and beg forgiveness to them.
This episode could have been worthy to the ongoing plot if themes made more contributions than they did. When Gaius gave Merlin his medicine bag, as if he was passing the mantle, at the time it felt special. Like this was a right of passage for Merlin, he was finally going to be seen with more respect coz he is official the physicianâs apprentice and we would see him win the day with scientific healing rather than magical, which would make up for the fact his healing skills with magic are the weakest. The knights, Merlin and Gwen are never psychologically scarred from this experience, everyone is the best of pals again after this, no questions asked, no verification or reassurance needed. Gwen didnât find out about merlinâs Magic and become the next only friend he can confide in, whilst also she and him saving themselves with Arthur just getting there seconds later.
I remember watching it way back and finding the logic of the Lamia pretty sound. The Old Religion is run by mainly powerful women, they had beef against kings of the time, thus loved to experiment and create creatures from snakes to control people and this one, Lamia, was made to go after men, coz otherwise it would also go after the high priestesses if they could not control it, and they couldnât. Sexuality and sexual preference never entered my adolescent mind. I learnt no bad messages from it.
I never found the logic of lamiaâs effect on only men offensive or something that needed to be explained more, this is a beast from the tales of old that was written of their time, where both male and female versions of this creature exist to use lust and âlove at first sightâ to prey on people, and obviously they believed heterosexuality was the one true sexual orientation. Not saying that itâs any less wrong, but all the Lamia had to do to gain the menâs âlife forceâ was to kiss them, if this was a higher rated show, she would have done much worse to them whilst they were under an influence so to speak and therefore things would have become a lot messier to clarify.
If Gwen used strips of merlinâs bright red neckerchief to tie around trees in a very green forest, that would have made more sense that Arthur found it. I didnât think the tree Arthur found the material on looking different to the one we saw Gwen tie it to was a mistake, because in my head, Arthur just found the first of the strips, and we actually saw Gwen tie her material to the third or fourth tree. She needs to make a trail after all.
This is an episode where it truly shows its target audience. Yes it is dark and scary at moments, but itâs clear that the only type of non friendly love that exists in this universe is romance, couples only ever kiss and babies are brought into the world via storks or magic. This episode wasnât written with older viewers in mind, where we analyse things and sees adult themes much more than obviously kids do. I sometimes try to watch this ep with the mindset of a child and then the issues with sexuality and rape culture and sexism fade away. But these are obviously themes that, with our modern standards, donât translate well, and the writing of âLamiaâ attempted to find a balance between the romanticism and ways of the old stories and our modern morals and ideals, and it didnât and couldnât land.
Lastly, it wasnât until I rewatched this episode back that I viewed so much in a weird way to before, and I didnât even rewatch it so long ago. The part where Gwen runs towards the Lamia yelling to get away from her friend was epic to me, right up to where the stab did nothing and Gwenâs on her back with Merlin about to be killed, which Arthur apparently witnessed all of. He gets to be the hero once more in a plot that didnât need him to be in it much at all. Of course he would be the one to hear Maryâs case, of course he would be concerned with letting Merlin go off (if not for his safety but for thinking he wonât be able to be a doctor), of course he will leave and try to find his friends when they donât come home, of course he can turn up at the end and allâs well. We could have seen him at the start and the end, and filled in the blanks of what he must have been doing in meantime for ourselves. This needed to be a story of Gwen and Merlin against the world. At the end Gaius could have explained to Merlin and Gwen whilst he treated the villagers and knights the specifics of the beast they encountered, and how he and Arthur worked it out along the way. But to make Arthur once again the cocky hero, Gwen the damsel, the knights let off of all repercussions, Gaius the real healer, and Merlin the incompetent weakling, really is what stopped this story from getting saved even a tiny bit.
And the weird thing is, itâs still one of my favourite episodes in s4, which isnât a big selection tbh.
19th April 2021 @ 2:49 pm
Britney had the theory above that the bar brawl music was playing, because it’s Gwaine who initiates the fight sequence, charging ahead despite the odds being against him, which I liked, but yeah it seems that everyone agrees that the music is just super inappropriate once they start killing people, and the fact that they are all celebratory in their victory, before turning to the girl going WE ARE HONOURABLE KNIGHTS OF CAMELOT, DO NOT FEAR is a bit odd, too.
–If Gwen wasnât going, would Arthur have sent so many of his best knights for purely merlinâs sake? —
one has to assume that not, especially because they have no reason to believe that the illness is anything other than an illness. no one’s talking about a physical foe that needs to be battled, which would explain the number of knights, and it’s not a case of bandits or mercenaries plaging the village (as in The moment of Truth) that again, would justify bringing all the knights.
–Since the episode is sort of one isolated plot on its own (without the last scene hinting at Arthur and Gwen for the next episode), it could have been placed before âSecret sharerâ–
I am very intrigued by how many episodes we have discussed and thought about whether they would be better placed somewhere else in the sequence of the show. and it kind of makes me want to binge watch the whole thing and see about re-ordering episodes dramatically, to figure out if it would improve not just the overall structure, but people’s learning journeys, which is one of the main critiques I have of the show.
–When Gaius gave Merlin his medicine bag, as if he was passing the mantle, at the time it felt special.–
totally! I don’t think we talked about it, but yes, that seemed like such a big deal… that then just disappeared.
–Not saying that itâs any less wrong, but all the Lamia had to do to gain the menâs âlife forceâ was to kiss them, if this was a higher rated show, she would have done much worse to them whilst they were under an influence so to speak and therefore things would have become a lot messier to clarify.–
it’s kind of why I’ve now simply started to question the inclusion of the lamia myth at all (now I know it’s an actual myth and have read up about it) because surely you were aware that you were going to have to not talk about 90% of what the lamia does to men according to the myth. which also explains why I cannot figure out the motivation or the machanics of what Lamia is doing. =/
M Xx
16th April 2021 @ 1:19 am
So I’ve listened to the podcast now, and… well… hum… hm. I guess I have to choose my words carefully, because I don’t want to come across as defending rape culture.
But then again, though it’s not a super extra episode for me, I’m not anti-Lamia, and I’m not really sorry for it.
So, the biggest problem with this episode in my opinion is that they didn’t have enough strength (?) to subvert the Greek myth from which they took the Lamia. It’s been an occasional problem with the show before: because they’re relying on old myths and legends, they sometimes take them without criticism.
You said that this situation reinforces the narrative of “she’s so sexy the men can’t help themselves”. But to be honest, at no point does Lamia present herself as sexy. Her clothing isn’t sexualized, she’s not super conventionally attractive. Rather, she presents herself as scared, vulnerable, and disheveled. Which, of course, begs the question of why she’s doing what she’s doing, because it seems that with that kind of behavior, she’s preying on the better part of the male population (namely, those who want to help her). It’s still odd, but I wouldn’t paint it in such extreme terms.
Of course, I also don’t like the enforced heteronormativity of the whole thing (why can’t Gwen be enchanted?). Cue all the fanfics which kinda fix that (most of them about Merlin being gay, but I also lately found a very good one about a nonbinary Merlin who doesn’t fall under a spell, because… well, they’re not a man. Here you go: https://archiveofourown.org/works/29490012 ).
Another thing which I don’t like is what Arthur says to Merlin at the end. Obviously. That’s probably the only thing which I’m mad about in this episode.
But there are also many things which I do like.
Like, the fact that Gwen ISN’T impotent. She clearly sees there’s something wrong with the knights. She sees they’re not being themselves, so she wants to help them, but obviously, she can’t fight four strong men with only Merlin by her side. And she doesn’t want to leave them because Lamia might kill them then. So she leaves the clues for Arthur, because she’s clever. Because Arthur really is their hope, because he might bring men who are not ensnared yet and maybe could somehow break the curse. Or bring Gaius who knows how to do it.
And then she actually deals the decisive blow to the Lamia. I never got the vibes that it’s Arthur who saved them; he helped them, but it’s Gwen who paralyzed the Lamia. I always got the vibe that it was a three-people job , with Gwen’s action coming at the climax, that’s how the scene seems to be structured. (sidenote: I really love the shot of Merlin and Gwen together on the floor right before Arthur comes, with Gwen trying to defend herself with magical means and Merlin’s eyes glittering gold as he raises his hand to do magic. This can be a cover for some cool fanfic where Merlin and Gwen have adventures together)
Despite how it comes about, I actually really enjoy the fact that it’s so easy for Lamia to ensnare all those big brave men. In the castle, where she has a confrontation with sir Leon, she just needs to flick her eyes ever so slightly for him to be knocked down and it’s really powerful. Again, I know that the knights don’t deserve this, because they just wanted to protect an assaulted girl. But I really enjoy the dynamic of big men being entirely helpless (even though they think they are all powerful) with the only people left standing being the not-conventionally manly Merlin and a woman, Gwen. I always saw it as Merlin and Gwen’s triumph…. And then, actually Gwen’s triumph, as she turned out to be more effective in the fight with Lamia than Merlin. I’m not going to lie, the fact that it can be interpreted so differently makes me in turns question my sanity and go “but HOW?”…
(again, sidenote: there is actually a fic which subverts the Lamia trope a little, and it’s also the rarest of rarepairs there is. I give you… Lamia/Elena. I know it sounds like crack, but it’s GREAT! https://archiveofourown.org/works/29340063 )
It never occurred to me to think that it’s Gaius that cures the people after Lamia’s death. It always seemed clear that he just helps them get back to full health, and the thing that saved them from death is Lamia’s demise.
Similarly, I never got the feeling that Merlin is acting suspicious of Lamia from the very start. His gestures never seemed anything else than him trying to help her in the beginning.
There are also some interesting soundtrack choices in this episode.
I don’t understand why they chose the “Gwaine’s Tavern Brawl” soundtrack for the scene of fighting with the bandits. It’s interesting that they framed the scene as funny (the expressions, the ease with which the knights fight, the music). I guess it’s supposed to be a contrast to how incapacitated the knights become straight after.
Another interesting soundtrack choice is when they first face Lamia. The soundtrack that is played is unreleased; we heard it only once, in The Keeper of the Bridge scenes from The Eye of the Phoenix. Back there, it represented the combination of the magic-ness of the quest (The Perilous Lands) with Arthur’s nobility (the perfect fifth is played on a French horn, representing purity / a call for battle). It’s very interesting that it sounds here. It can be interpreted as representing the knights’ nobility, which is kinda mocked here, as they face magic, but they don’t know it yet. In this scene, their nobility is so emphasized they almost come across as too good to be true (literal knights in shining armor: even the line “don’t be afraid, we’re knights of Camelot” is almost funny in how nobly Arthurian it sounds) – and it’s soon all going to pieces. It’s like it almost sends a message that their nobility is more superficial than it should be.
And next week… now, THAT’S something I’m afraid of, not the Lamia…
(also low key afraid that I’m going to be hated for this comment)
16th April 2021 @ 11:49 am
Thank you for taking the time and effort on your comment, I’m putting a lot of it aside for us to talk about up top next week’s episode, but I hadn’t actually realised (and stupidly never even felt the need to google just to check) that the Lamia is an actual existing myth, and having done 5 minutes of reading just now, I guess it might explain why the show didn’t follow through on what Lamia actually wants to do with the men she seduces, as wikipedia tells me ‘feed on their flesh after sex’ was the modus operandi for a Lamia. So yeah, some of the wishy washy reasoning could definitely be explained by them editing the myth down for family television, and then failing to replace the reasoning with anything else…
Also thank you for all the of fic recs! I’ve added them to my ‘to read’ list đ and sorry your comment was caught in the spam filter. the website panics when faced with links and puts a pause on everything, until we tell it to chill lol
–And then she actually deals the decisive blow to the Lamia. I never got the vibes that itâs Arthur who saved them; he helped them, but itâs Gwen who paralyzed the Lamia. I always got the vibe that it was a three-people job , with Gwenâs action coming at the climax, thatâs how the scene seems to be structured.–
that’s definitely a much more palatable way to look at that scene, so I will happily accept that logic! merlin stabbed her a bit, Gwen stabbed her more and paralysed her, and then Arthur also showed up, after the fact lol
–This can be a cover for some cool fanfic where Merlin and Gwen have adventures together–
see? not I think if I hadn’t been so down about this episode, I totally could have gone with your view on Gwen and Merlin in this story, and made that the podcast cover! Woe đ
–I donât understand why they chose the âGwaineâs Tavern Brawlâ soundtrack for the scene of fighting with the bandits. —
oh my god yes!
Because we’d had this theme called out multiple times I couldn’t tell whether it really IS completely out of place and ostentatious, or whether I just focus on it more now, because I recognise it. But I’m glad you and multiple other people brought it up!!
–And next week⌠now, THATâS something Iâm afraid of, not the Lamia⌖
because you think the episode is bad or because lancelot is creepy? or both? or something else?
I remember veeeeeery little from next week, other than being really offended on Gwen’s behalf, so it’ll be interesting to rewatch it and find out how I feel about it, ten years on lol
–(also low key afraid that Iâm going to be hated for this comment)–
NEVER <3
M
16th April 2021 @ 2:13 pm
-I hadnât actually realised (and stupidly never even felt the need to google just to check) that the Lamia is an actual existing myth,-
Don’t worry, I didn’t remember either đ I said to myself “hmm, this really sounds like some ancient legend that hasn’t been reviewed enough” and yeah, it was!
-because you think the episode is bad or because lancelot is creepy? or both? or something else?-
So, SPOILER.
Oh, it’s a whole combo I think. The “everything falls apart” aspect of the story that makes it so painful to watch, but also, I’m really indignant on behalf of Gwen while simultaneously understanding Arthur’s behavior, which makes it even more painful! And then, there is also the fact that, unlike most of the fandom I think, rather than wishing Arthur got to know that Gwen has been enchanted in the end, I wish Gwen acted like she did without being enchanted! Every character of Merlin is allowed to make mistakes, sometimes huge ones, but Gwen isn’t! And we end up in a situation where everyone treats Gwen like she did a terrible crime while in reality, she didn’t do anything – instead of Gwen actually making a mistake and someone realizing that it’s probably not as big a crime as it’s painted to be. Gee, I don’t know how to express myself coherently on this one đ I guess I need to practice till next week đ
16th April 2021 @ 2:27 pm
Oh, I hadn’t realised a lot of people want Arthur to know that Gwen was enchanted, I’ve just always been so offended on her behalf because *she* never finds out what caused her to act in the way she did. And I guess the problem is if she did find out, then Arthur would, too, but it just seems so unpleasant that people know, but don’t tell Gwen =/
— Gee, I donât know how to express myself coherently on this one đ I guess I need to practice till next week đ–
that was plenty coherent, or certainly I agree with what I took from it, which is that giving someone autonomy to make a choice means there’s reasoning and justification behind that choice, and therefore when criticised for the choice you made, you are able to defend and justify yourself. However Gwen’s not given a choice and in fact spends most of the episode (from what I remember) really struggling with the “choice” she made, and not being able to understand why she would have done it, and therefore unable to explain it to anyone else, including all the people condemning her for it, because she doesn’t understand it herself. (Sorry if that wasn’t what you meant!!)
Anyway, getting ahead of myself! lol
18th April 2021 @ 2:19 pm
Every character of Merlin is allowed to make mistakes, sometimes huge ones, but Gwen isnât! And we end up in a situation where everyone treats Gwen like she did a terrible crime while in reality, she didnât do anything –
Yep, couldn’t have said it better. I know we are kind of starting early on next week’s episode, but like you, I am pretty terrified of it and angry at it and puzzled why they felt that had to tell this story but then didn’t have the courage or the audience to tell it properly. It’s like they are serving up half-cooked porridge that’s neither here nor there and, because of this odd space, creates more problems than if they had either fully committed or not at all. Sigh.
15th April 2021 @ 8:30 pm
Okay, before I actually get further into listening to this podcast episode, I just wanted to get it on the record that I have always really liked ‘Lamia’. There is one completely unforgiving thing that I hate otherwise I really like it.
So, now I’m going to listen and I’ll report back when everything is (maybe) changed. Sorry fandom…. But (so far) I’ve never understood why everyone hates this so much. đ¤
15th April 2021 @ 9:55 pm
đŹđŹđŹđŹ
In that case, this episode might not be for you
đŹđŹđŹđŹđŹ
16th April 2021 @ 4:27 am
Don’t worry – I still want to hear your thoughts on it. đ
15th April 2021 @ 11:11 pm
I’m with you here! Let’s break the silence đ
No, in all seriousness, I probably can’t say that I really *like like* Lamia, but I never understood the fandom’s hate towards it. You know, in a show that gave us trolls and goblins, I’d expect some other episode to be the least favorite. I just watched the episode and I have a few points of meh, but otherwise really enjoyed it.
I’m also just starting to listen to the podcast and we’ll see where it goes…
16th April 2021 @ 4:32 am
Thank you for speaking out – I’m glad I’m not the only one. đ Yeah, I mean it’s not my favourite but I think there is a lot of merit to it. I think for me, the story that is being told is predominantly about Merlin himself, his growing skills as a physicians, the support he receives from his friends when others belittle him or what it could be like if they would treat him just like a servant.
They could have chosen to tell that kind of story in any way and they’ve chosen Lamia. I don’t really mind because I like the story not for the Lamia aspect but what it communicates to us about Merlin.
16th April 2021 @ 11:33 am
I’ll be super interested to see your comment when you’re done listening, as the lamia really was a side problem on the episode, it’s the merlin promises and lack of delivery that we took the most offense to, I think. certainly the thing that snuck up on me the most, when I realised, and that made me the most disgruntled. hmmmm.
So yeah, looking forward to your take on it all!
M Xx
16th April 2021 @ 11:31 am
I do hope that no one actually felt like they had to genuinly rev themselves up to break the silence on disagreeing with our interpretation of the episode, we always want people to feel safe to disagree and be able to so loudly and proudly!!! <3 <3 <3
M Xx
16th April 2021 @ 3:24 pm
No, no. Certainly not me. I don’t think that’s the kind of community you have created through this podcast. We like people thinking differently and sharing their reasons. đ